Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
Welcome To Ask The Trades!
Apr 25th, 2024, 6:14am
Quote: Why don't they just make mouse-flavored cat food?


Page Index Toggle Pages: 1
Send Topic Print
Earthing, TNCS and R1 + R2 (Read 5062 times)
leebutts
GDPR opt-out









Earthing, TNCS and R1 + R2
Jan 21st, 2008, 3:33pm
 
As some of you may know, I; doing the 2330 part 2 at LCT, just wondered if you could answer a couple of questions for me?

1) In a TNCS system if the earth is connected to the neutral, is there not a possibility of the current taking the shortest route to earth          (instead of back to the supply system), back through say the copper water piping via the CPC cable, if that runs into the ground below the dwelling?

2) Is R1 + R2 simply a measurement of the resistance that would occur in the event of an earth fault, so should be within the recommendations. In lay man's terms, the maximum length (and resistance) that the current would have to pass through both live and CPC within the consumer's sytem?

As always thanks for any helpfull replies,
Lee
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Lectrician
Administrator
Trade Member
Author
*****
Offline

Ask The Trades
Posts: 8814


Total Thanks: 109
For This Post: 0


Braunton, North Devon, United Kingdom
Braunton, North Devon
United Kingdom

Gender: male

Trade: Electrician



Re: Earthing, TNCS and R1 + R2
Reply #1 - Jan 21st, 2008, 3:55pm
 
1)  PME (TN-C-S) - The neutral current could well return through various other paths, this is called 'circulating network currents'.  You may also find current from other parts of the network flowing through your N-E join and then down the CNE conductor.  You also get ground currents, where the current flows through the mass of the ground.  These currents are all usually fairly small, compared to the actual load of the supply, as the neutral is usually of a lower impedance, and hence the current is going to flow that way as prefered route.

There are some instances where PME is not allowed.  A petrol forcourt being the most obvious - Circulating network currents in the earthing of a petrol forcourt with metal pumps, metal tanks etc etc is not good - A little corrosion on the tank or joint could spark with these currents flowing through them.

Swimming pools and communal showers etc are also not meant to have a PME earthing due to voltage drops caused by circulating network currents.  These voltage drops can present a potential difference between earthed metalwork and mother earth (the ground / floor).  You may then recieve what is known as a 'perceived' shock, as the actuall voltage is not going to be anywhere near 240v, but enough to make you take notice.

Another example is an outside tap - It is actually recommended to supply an outside tap with an insulated section of pipework to ensure the tap is not connected to the PME earthing terminal.  This is rarely done.  In my area it is not uncommon to here surfers talk of 'percieved shock' (*they have no idea whats going on*).  They come back from the beach bare foot, stand on the grass and turn the tap on to wash their board/wet suit.  As the earth may be at a different potential than the tap, you may recieve a tingle.  This tingle being more prominent if the ground is wet.........so when you turn the tap off Wink


2)  The r1+r2 is the physical resistance of the Live and Earth loop.  This resistance is added to the Ze to give a Zs for the circuit.  The Zs is the resistance of the entire earth fault loop (inc back the network cable and through the transformer).  This resistance (or impedance as it is better refered to) limits the current somewhat during a fault.  For example:

If your Zs at the final circuit is 1.05ohm, at 230v, 219amps would flow for the duration of the fault.  Obviously this current will only flow for a fraction of a second (hopefully) until the MCB or similar operates.  We use this 219amps figure to determine (using the current charts at the back of BS7671) the time it will take for the MCB to operate.  We must check this operates within the disconnection time specified for the circuit.  Typically 0.4seconds for sockets, but 5 seconds for fixed equipment.
Back to top
 

Need to post a picture? Click HERE for info!
Thank User For This Post WWW View members image gallery  
IP Logged
 
leebutts
Re: Earthing, TNCS and R1 + R2
Reply #2 - Jan 21st, 2008, 5:25pm
 
Thanks a lot for that Lectrician. Im glad to see that the first point about TNCS (PME) is quite complicated and not me getting things mixed up. We do the tests at college and I think I'm ok at knowing the orders and recordings etc but sometimes you can forget what your actually testing for.

Once again, thanks for that,
Lee
Back to top
 
Thank User For This Post  
IP Logged
 
unphased
Re: Earthing, TNCS and R1 + R2
Reply #3 - Jan 21st, 2008, 5:49pm
 
Quote:
2) Is R1 + R2 simply a measurement of the resistance that would occur in the event of an earth fault, so should be within the recommendations. In lay man's terms, the maximum length (and resistance) that the current would have to pass through both live and CPC within the consumer's sytem?


Lee. Resistance is fixed for a given cross sectional area of copper and a given length. The resistance is known. It doesn't "occur". It is always there. Temperature of the copper will vary it, but thats all. R1 is the resistance of the phase wire from the furthest point in the ciruit back to the origin. R2 id the resistance of the cpc from the furthest point in the circuit back to the origin. Adding the two resistances together (R1+R2) provides us with the earth fault loop for the circuit within the consumers installation. If current flows in the earth fault loop it is likely to be huge for a split second. Thats why we need to ensure very LOW R1+R2 readings to ensure BIG current to trip the protective device. This is what is important and sparks tend not to appreciate it. If you can grasp the importance of R1+R2 you will be well on your way to understanding the Electricians trade.

UP
Back to top
« Last Edit: Jan 21st, 2008, 5:52pm by Lectrician »  
Thank User For This Post  
IP Logged
 
leebutts
Re: Earthing, TNCS and R1 + R2
Reply #4 - Jan 22nd, 2008, 12:11am
 
Thanks for that Unphased. I understand the above posts so cheers and rest assured I will do my best. I am trying to get these theoretical things stuck in my head now so that it is one less thing to worry about, books every night etc.

As an aside from this, recently I had a council electrician fit two new storage heaters in my flat (radial circuit each). When he was testing the earth loop he made some adjustments at the consumer unit (economy 7) then used a meter I haven't seen before, it had three leads to attach: earth via croc clip to front, live via small plug and I think a neutral small plug. Anyway it was ok and gave a reading of 0.35 ohms. Just wondering about the neutral and if anyone is familiar with this?
Back to top
 
Thank User For This Post  
IP Logged
 
msb2003
Re: Earthing, TNCS and R1 + R2
Reply #5 - Mar 7th, 2008, 11:53pm
 
My guess would be the test carried out was to measure the Ze (the external earth fault loop path). Ideally this would be done in the supply cutout but as this and the meter should be sealed, the incomming tails to the distribution board would be the easiest place to take the measurement.
At level 2 on the C&G 2330 you wouldn't yet be expected to carry out the live tests, only going as far as R1+R2 or R2, ring continuity, insulation resistance and polarity.
Finally, you will often find that the measured Zs for a given circuit does not match the calculated figure of Ze+R1+R2 as parallel earth paths are present through bonded metalwork and services and can cause Zs to be lower.
Good luck with the course
Back to top
 
Thank User For This Post  
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1
Send Topic Print