C&G is the more technical of the two paths. NVQ is probably as good on the practical side because in that respect both have similar expectations of competence.

At one time you'd have been advised to get work with and work alongside an experienced tradesman, attending college to get the C&G or NVQ part-time. However, the current situation in the construction industry (for site work) and the effect of the credit crunch on the general market for home improvements, makes that an unlikely prospect. In the last twelve months I've known two good joinery businesses (one of them doing a lot of shopfitting) go belly-up, taking nine men down with them. All experienced men, they're all now competing for what's out there.

Sorry to sound so dire, but the situation is dire unless you're already established in a particular specialty, and even then work is down on what it used to be.

You're also painting yourself in a corner by being so specific about the sector you're aiming to join.

As you're intent on shopfitting, I'd suggest you approach local companies and take whatever you can get in that sector. Certainly go and talk to them to find out what the situation is for them. I'd be surprised if what you hear is heartening to someone headed out on the first steps of a chosen career, because the situation in the retail sector is not one conducive to the opening of new shop outlets.

Right, doom and gloom out of the way, things can only get positive!

From the way you talk would I be right in assuming that you have the necessary hand skills to actually do carpentry? If so, and you have family backing, then you could do worse than apply for a full-time college course to get either C&G or NVQ for no other reason than it will give you a buffer that allows time to review the work situation and decide where the opportunities are, the actual paper qualification is, for all practical purposes, irrelevent. You'll hone your skills and pick up some good tips if you actually listen to the instructors and not take the piss out of them (common now, but if you tried that in my day you'd get a slapping).

I think every other chippy (and doubtless the other trades) on here will agree that the fact that you've taken the time and trouble to ask for advice is working in your favour and demonstrates a good work ethic, so you're more than part way to getting where you want to be.

For all that we moan about aspects of the job, we love what we do and consider ourselves lucky to be able to do it. Our moans are not about what we do, just about who we sometimes have to do it for and who gets in the way of our doing it (councils and government regulations spring instantly to mind).

A lot of us started out small by working for friends and family. My particular specialty came about by accident and just grew. The essential thing is to work on your skills and that knowledge associated with whatever field your interest lies in. If you have the basic skills already, then there is no reason why you can't teach yourself all you need to know. Just start small and keep your ambitions modest. If you get good enough you'll be noticed and demand - and how well you meet the challenges that presents - will then determine where you go and how far.

Whatever happens, keep in touch and let us know.

No one can answer that one. The situation changes so fast and it depends on whether you're lucky enough to meet up with someone who won't screw you.

The work experience thing is the Catch 22. A lot of guys start out as virtual labourers and keep their eyes and ears open.

The biggest obstacle to getting hands-on experience with anything other than a big company is Health and Safety. Small outfits simply can't afford to meet the requirements, which are often ridiculous.

As much as I tried to find someone to take over my business last year, they'd have had to come in as a partner because if I'd employed someone H&S would have closed me down overnight, given some of my work practices! But to do certain operations things like guards have to be removed for operations like cutting rebates or mortice and tenons (although finished off on the morticer).

You'll just have to review the situation locally. Don't be afraid to knock on doors and ask the obvious questions. As I said earlier, folk appreciate the fact that you can be bothered to get off your ass and go after work.

Hi Chippie1,

I completely agree with Joiners comments 100%. I completed my C&G Joinery to Level 3 just over 3 years ago and still haven't got a job as a joiner (although in fairness, my circumstances changed thanks to my soon to be exwife, which prevented me from doing what I wanted to do and I've taken a different career and do my joinery as a hobby/sideline).

The college claim that you don't need any experience in joinery, however, I would challenge that comment and suggest that you at least have some knowledge of tools, timbers etc as it gives you a head start. I did my course 2 nights a week for 3 years part time. I couldn't tell you if it can be done in a shorter period of time if you went full time, I'd check with your colleges.

If you're heading down the C&G route, the first thing you need to consider is which discipline you want to go down. Bench Joinery concentrates on the fabrication of doors, frames, cupboard units (albeit made with chipboard?! rather than solid timber), staircases etc, or Site Joinery which looks after hanging said doors made by the bench joiner, roofing trusses, flooring etc. You can do both disciplines which adds another string to your bow, but adds more time to your studying. One lesson each week was theory and the second was practical each lasting about 3hours.

I would certainly do a qualification as that can't be taken away from you and you will no doubt gain some contacts at the college who you can use to put some feelers out for work and experience for you. You will also learn other practical skills like your 1st Aid, Working at Heights, Fire Safety training etc that prospective employers will want you to have (better for them if they don't have to pay for you to do it).

You mention that you are looking at shopfitting, which as Joiner says is limiting your avenues considerably. Have you considered looking at widening your horizons into other areas of joinery?

However, if that's the route you want then I'd get into reading some of the better magazines (don't want to name any in case I breach any royalty regulations) for some good all round knowledge. Try starting to do jobs for family and friends to gain some practice and experience and let them put the word out about your work. Don't be frightened of asking others for advice/tips/tricks, particularly in here as there's some great resources and knowledge in this forum. Anything you can do using your own initiative and willing will set you up for the future. If it's what you want to do, go for it and stick at it. It'll be hard, but I guess you've got to make your own luck.

Shop fitting by specifically shop-fitting companies is actually quite a closed shop (no pun intended). It's a bit like Auf Weidersein Pet, in that the time-scales are so tight that the crews who do the job are essentially 'work gangs' who've worked together before. If you've ever seen those guys working it's virtually non-stop. You'll see a notice in a window of a shop that's been vacant for a while saying that "XXX Sex Toys is coming to town" and within days the crew moves in and it's all-go 24/7 until the new shop opens a week later, fully fitted and ready for the stock to go in.

With that type of contract time is of the essence. A price has been agreed and the crew works its ass off to get it done asap. Do the seven days work you've quoted for in five and you've earned a nice little bonus. Unlike the domestic customer who'll argue the toss, insisting that they pay only for the time you've been there (regardless of the extra effort you've put in to finish earlier), the commercial customer will pay the agreed contracted sum, the earlier completion date being a bonus for them as well.

So you can see why it's hard to break into a shop fitting gang who've worked together long enough to know how each other works. Regardless of what appears to be a resurrected retail market, whilst the jobs for shop assistants might be there for the asking, work on the shop fitting side ain't gonna be so easy to get.

For smaller companies who do shop fitting as just another part of their portfolio it's a different matter, but again they'll be using their most experienced men because time will still be of the essence for the person who wants to see their little side street boutique move from dream to reality before the tourist season starts.

Sandy's experience is all too common and his advice to add as many strings to your bow as possible is about as sound as you can get. Shop fitting is something you move into, you don't make it your aim, although there's nothing wrong with keeping it as a long-term objective.

C&G is a hell of a slog. Far harder than a degree course in many ways, especially the modern degree courses! I have the utmost respect for anyone who's gone down the C&G route. When I did mine (not in joinery) I used to wonder how the hell I'd got through the week. My son's experience (bricklaying) was the same. At the end of it you do tend to wonder why you'd bothered because most employers in the building trade are suspicious of people with qualifications and you get to the point where you don't even mention it unless asked, even on your CV. It's that Catch 22 situation, such that you start lying about your experience, using the old dodge of filling dates with periods of "self employment", although you've got to have the trade skills to carry through the bluff. Or used to, because back then you'd either be given a site test there and then, or just taken on on a daily basis subject to proof of the abilities you'd claimed to have. If you were a bullshitter you'd be out on your ear in very short order.

Now you know why the increasing "professionalisation" of the trades makes me laugh!

Bit different for sparks, Zam. Those bits of paper give a prospective employer reassurance that you're not going to kill anyone - although that's moot! Bit different with wood.

And, of course, the dreaded H&S demands all that paper, a point that Sandy made re the Regs and H&S. And employers will be looking at their insurance.

Self-employment has its good points, although they're diminishing by the week as H&S spreads its tentacles even wider.