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https://www.askthetrades.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl DIY Forum >> Electrical Questions >> Inside Lights https://www.askthetrades.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1161200732 Message started by Bob on Oct 18^th, 2006, 8:45pm

Title: Inside Lights
Post by Bob on Oct 18^th, 2006, 8:45pm

Evening again,
I'm having a extension built onto my house comprising of a garage with two bedrooms above it. The guy who did my drawings submitted for planning and building control put in the notes that 1 in 3 lights should be low energy. Is that correct? He also put that sockets should be between 450-1200mm which I know isn't correct as it is an extension not a new build.
Cheers

Title: Re: Inside Lights
Post by squirrel on Oct 19^th, 2006, 1:14am

Bob

Not sure about part L and low energy lights although I have heard that you fit them for LABC approval and once approved change then for what ever you like. (but don't quote me!)

as for part M and accesory heights it can be put on EIC as a deviation from BS7671 at customers request I did this on a rewire which was part of my annual assesssment and was accepted.

Title: Re: Inside Lights
Post by CWatters on Oct 19^th, 2006, 11:43am

I saved this table some time ago. Not sure if still current...

It says how many low energy fitting you need. It depends on the number of new rooms.

All the fittings can be in one room.

They must produce 40 lumens per watt which I believe rules out LED lighting as they aren't yet that efficient.

I'm not 100% sure but believe the light fittings also have to be the type with the ballast built in (eg so you can't just change the bulb back to a halogen type etc). If this is true it means that virtually no lamps available in DIY stores meet Part L. The only ones that do are the kitchen/utility room strip lights that take a standard flourescent tube. Oh and a few round ceiling lights.

TLC has a range thet meet Part L..

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/Lighting_Menu_Index/Lighting_Regs_L1_Internal/index.html

If you just want something to get you through the regs and which is easy to put back then try this pendant...

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/Lighting_Menu_Index/Lighting_Regs_L1_Internal/Low_Energy_Pendant/index.html

Title: Re: Inside Lights
Post by CWatters on Oct 19^th, 2006, 11:52am

I think you might right about the sockets but you would be wise to check with your BCO. How high are the sockets in the rest of the house?

http://www.ovolopublishing.co.uk/housebuildersupdate/2005/12/does-part-m-apply-to-new-extensions.html

Quote:

Does Part M apply to new extensions?

Tracey asks:

Do the Part M access requirements apply to extensions to properties?

Mark reckons:

Guidance on this issue is in the latest 2004 edition of Part M. Broadly speaking, the answer is NO.

This is unusual for building regs: normally they apply to material alterations, just as much as to new builds. However, Part M is attempting to make homes easier for disabled people to visit and it therefore doesn't make any sense to apply these regs to just one part of the house.

There are a couple of exceptions.

• If the existing house is already Part M compliant (and it will be if it's been constructed in the past five years), then of course the new extension must meet the same standards.

• You can't make the house worse, from an access point of view. By way of example, you can't take out the only downstairs toilet.

Title: Re: Inside Lights
Post by Bob on Oct 19^th, 2006, 9:18pm

Cheers for the replys,

That table throws a spanner in the works as I was hoping to use (and still am) fluorescent strips in the garage and a bulkhead type 2D fitting in a passageway that runs between the original outside wall and garage. The only other place new lights are going are bedrooms where a fluorescent of any kind will be crap (I like dimmable especially as they are to be childrens rooms).

Bit of a farce really as in all halls, landings + the bathroom I use low energy bulbs anyway.

I think I'll just do as above and argue the toss when it comes to it. (But you didn't read that here!) ;)

Title: Re: Inside Lights
Post by baz on Oct 20^th, 2006, 12:00am

That is an old table. the new document L1B (Existing Buildings) states that:
Re internal lighting
".........Reasonable provision would be to provide in the
areas affected by the work, fixed energy efficient light
fittings to a number not less than the greater of:
a. one per 25m2 of dwelling floor area (excluding
garages) or part thereof AND
Installing mains frequency fluorescent lighting in
garages may cause dangers through stroboscopic
interaction with vehicle engine parts or machine tools.
High frequency electronic ballasted fluorescent lamps
substantially reduce this risk.
b. one per four fixed lighting fittings.
A light fitting may contain one or more lamps...."

So, 25% of your fittings must be low energy AND they will not accept just plugging in low energy GLS, GU10 lamps etc. Must be fittings that will only take low energy lamps. Your LABC may have a different interpretation on this but thats what the bible says.

Re socket heights. This is not a part opf BS7671 but a building reg. It has found its way into the On Site Guide. The socket heights are included in Part M which is re disabled access. The socket heights apply to new build and complete refurbs not to small extensions. Its pointless, why put points at heights for disabled access if the building cant support a disabled person getting into it in the first place.........

Bazza

Title: Re: Inside Lights
Post by CWatters on Oct 20^th, 2006, 6:34pm

Thanks for the update. Looks like the rules changed on 1st April 06 (after we started building fortunately).

That bit about 25% being low energy could get interesting. What happens if you have 100 individual LEDs in your bedroom ceiling? Are they going call that 100 fittings and demand you fit 25 more low energy lamps somewhere? I hope they take a more practical stand.

I counted up the number of downlights in my mates kitchen, living room and study - he's got 36 plus a further 8 small halogens under the kitchen worktops. That would mean fitting 11 low energy lights somewhere. He hasn't got enough rooms.

Edit: I also noticed this bit...

"44 Lighting fittings in less frequented areas like
cupboards and other storage areas would not count."

Title: Re: Inside Lights
Post by CWatters on Oct 20^th, 2006, 8:04pm

I only recently discovered that you can get flourescent tubes in warm white as well as the standard cool white. I've not tried them yet but I imagine the warm white looks a lot better. Got some on order from...

http://www.ryness.co.uk/productslist.aspx?CategoryID=399

http://www.ryness.co.uk/productslist.aspx?CategoryID=398

Title: Re: Inside Lights
Post by JerryD on Oct 20^th, 2006, 8:13pm

CWatters wrote on Oct 20^th, 2006, 6:34pm:

I counted up the number of downlights in my mates kitchen, living room and study - he's got 36 plus a further 8 small halogens under the kitchen worktops. That would mean fitting 11 low energy lights somewhere. He hasn't got enough rooms.

And the best bit about this stupid rule is that if your mate HAD to install the extra 11 low energy lights, he'd probably never use them anyway! :-/

Title: Re: Inside Lights
Post by Bob on Oct 20^th, 2006, 9:32pm

So if I install 1 fitting in each new bedroom and one in the new upstairs hallway (everything else is classed as outside or in a garage) I'm only putting in 3 new fittings. So I don't have to fit a low energy one?

Title: Re: Inside Lights
Post by SimonF on Oct 20^th, 2006, 10:23pm

CWatters wrote on Oct 20^th, 2006, 6:34pm:

Your mate should count himself lucky - In the house I've recently bought, the lighting in the conservatory consists of 240 fairy lights taped to the roof beams.

So I guess I need to build an warehouse at the end of the garden to fit 60 flourescents in....

Title: Re: Inside Lights
Post by baz on Oct 21^st, 2006, 8:14am

CWatters wrote on Oct 20^th, 2006, 6:34pm:

OK, two points.
1.LEDs are low energy lamps as they have an efficacy greater than 40 lumens per circuit watt.

2. Doc L1B states "A light fitting may contain one or more lamps...." I have argued this point thus:
Show the building inspector a ceilinglight firring that has a transformer and 4 lamps all run off the transformer. He/she will agree that is one fitting. Now you can argue that is you install a bathroom lighting arrangement with 4 x MR16 lamps run off on transformer then that is the same thing.
If you install the lights with one transformer per lamp than he may count it as 4 separate fittings. (Nuts eh?)

Bazza

Title: Re: Inside Lights
Post by CWatters on Oct 21^st, 2006, 12:19pm

Quote:

OK, two points.
1.LEDs are low energy lamps as they have an efficacy greater than 40 lumens per circuit watt.

That's not what I heard or is "circuit watt" different to regular watts? I thought only the very newest LEDs manage to better 40 L/W. eg almost nothing on the highstreet yet.

http://members.misty.com/don/lede.html

says..

"The better usual modern white LEDs (as of September 2006) produce about 29-45 lumens of light per watt of electricity delivered to the LEDs when the LEDs are supplied "typical" current or that at which their characteristics are specified. A few premium models now available are achieving typically 52-64 lumens/watt, with 69 lumens/watt just announced today 10/9/2006."

I know better prototypes do exist though.

Quote:

2. Doc L1B states "A light fitting may contain one or more lamps...." I have argued this point thus:
Show the building inspector a ceilinglight firring that has a transformer and 4 lamps all run off the transformer. He/she will agree that is one fitting. Now you can argue that is you install a bathroom lighting arrangement with 4 x MR16 lamps run off on transformer then that is the same thing.
If you install the lights with one transformer per lamp than he may count it as 4 separate fittings. (Nuts eh?)

Equally it implies 12V and mains halogen downlights might be treated differently. More nuts for the squirrels.

Title: Re: Inside Lights
Post by CWatters on Oct 21^st, 2006, 12:31pm

Am I right in thinking that a dual tube florescent only counts as one Low Energy fitting now (where as in the past it counted as two)?

Thats a shame. I thought one of these in a utility room might count as four..

Title: Re: Inside Lights
Post by supersparky on Oct 21^st, 2006, 7:35pm

you could argue that, on the grounds that you could have used 4 fittings with 1 tube and that would have used far more materials, energy and be far more to recycle at the end of its usefull life.

considdering you have the 3 bases - production - running and - disposal on your side theres not much they could argue back....

ss