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https://www.askthetrades.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl DIY Forum >> Electrical Questions >> unswitched sockets https://www.askthetrades.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1100734083 Message started by plugwash on Nov 17^th, 2004, 11:28pm

Title: unswitched sockets
Post by plugwash on Nov 17^th, 2004, 11:28pm

someone (who from thier other contributions im pretty sure is a sparky) added the following to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BS_1363#others

Quote:

The regs require an adjacent switch where this is not incorporated into the socket.

i personally don't belive this is correct and neither does LS
[23:06] <plugwash> are unswitched sockets allowed directly on a ring?
[23:06] <LS> of course
[23:06] <LS> isolation is by removing the plug

can anyone confirm of refute this statement prefereablly with sources quoted to back themselced up

Title: Re: unswitched sockets
Post by supersparky on Nov 18^th, 2004, 12:01am

well, it depends on the situation dosnt it

if you have a single unswitched socket under a worktop behind a intergrated dishwasher it would be foolish to use the plug as isolation.
im not sure that removing the plug constitutes acsessable means of isolation either

fancy pulling a 415 v 3 phase plug out if the metal kopex was live?

same applies to a situation where exposed sheilded cable is used/ swa

i cant be bothered to find regs relating to it
but what you must both not forget is that weather there is a reg or not any court would wipe the floor with you over bad design and instalation

ss

Title: Re: unswitched sockets
Post by L.Spark on Nov 18^th, 2004, 12:56am

Quote:

well, it depends on the situation dosnt it

yep

Quote:

im not sure that removing the plug constitutes acsessable means of isolation either

That would depend upon if the socket was accesible really

Quote:

fancy pulling a 415 v 3 phase plug out if the metal kopex was live?

Surely it would be properly earthed

Quote:

i cant be bothered to find regs relating to it
but what you must both not forget is that weather there is a reg or not any court would wipe the floor with you over bad design and instalation

Yes they would, Well at least who's fitting them, I don't fit single sockets without isolation, and unswitched sockets are just for people who use 1mm cable instead of 1.5mm, altho probably not quite the same ;D ;D ;D

Anyway theres houses with lots of unswitched sockets and no isolation, the plug is the isolation it's simple as that, sockets shouldnt be concealed unless they have another switch for control ::)

Title: Re: unswitched sockets
Post by supersparky on Nov 18^th, 2004, 3:16pm

pulling the plug isnt isolation
its disconnection

ss

Title: Re: unswitched sockets
Post by L.Spark on Nov 18^th, 2004, 3:56pm

wrote on Nov 18^th, 2004, 3:16pm:

pulling the plug isnt isolation
its disconnection

ss

Sorry mate I disagree..

Quote:

1. Isolation � Type of Switch designed to interrupt the flow of power in order to carry out work on the installation (CCU)
2. Emergency � Type of switch designed to interrupt the supply for emergency purposes (Red stop buttons, fireman switch)
3. Mechanical maintenance � Type of switch designed to isolate the supply when work is carried out by non-technical staff (lamp replacement etc.)
4. Functional � Type of switching designed to control current using equipment, e.g. light switch

It is possible for more than one switch to be provided of the same type, for example a light switch can be used as a functional switch and for mechanical maintenance.

Devices suitable for isolation

1. Isolators
2. Isolating switches
3. Plugs and sockets
4. Fuse link
5. Circuit breaker

IEE Requirements BS7671

1. At the origin of supply
2. For every circuit (or group of circuits)
3. For every motor and associated control gear
4. For every discharge lighting excluding L.V.
5. For maintenance of main switch
6. For control of remote equipment

Title: Re: unswitched sockets
Post by supersparky on Nov 18^th, 2004, 4:23pm

very supprised but fair enough
theres probrably something in the regs that contradicts that.blodey regs
wheres CPW?

ss

Title: Re: unswitched sockets
Post by plugwash on Nov 18^th, 2004, 4:28pm

the guy who made the orignal edit has given the following justification

Quote:

Don't know about online source but section 537-04 of BS 7671 requires a 'means of means of interrupting the supply for the purpose of emergency switching' , 'not a plug and socket-outlet' which must 'be installed in a readily accessible position where the hazard might occur'. --Ali@gwc.org.uk 15:08, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

is he taking a reg out of context here and can someone provide details of what that reg actually says and what context it is in

Title: Re: unswitched sockets
Post by L.Spark on Nov 18^th, 2004, 9:08pm

wrote on Nov 18^th, 2004, 4:23pm:

very supprised but fair enough
theres probrably something in the regs that contradicts that.blodey regs
wheres CPW?

ss

Yea tell me about it, im bored already and I hate to have to disagree about pointless things like this..

Don't see what the fascination is plugwash, although I understand you have that website that you want to contribute too and make accurate the information.. ::)

Title: Re: unswitched sockets
Post by ChubbyPhaseWire on Nov 18^th, 2004, 9:32pm

537-02-10
A plug and socket-outlet or similar device may be used as a means of isolation. ;)

Title: Re: unswitched sockets
Post by supersparky on Nov 18^th, 2004, 9:36pm

there ya go then
thanks cpw ::)

ss

Title: Re: unswitched sockets
Post by L.Spark on Nov 18^th, 2004, 9:47pm

wrote on Nov 18^th, 2004, 3:16pm:

pulling the plug isnt isolation
its disconnection

ss

Quote:

537-02-10
A plug and socket-outlet or similar device may be used as a means of isolation.

We all make mistakes :)

Title: Re: unswitched sockets
Post by plugwash on Nov 19^th, 2004, 2:11am

any chance someone could quote me 537-04? i want to know if that "not a plug and socket" is part of the reg or an addition by this guy

Title: Re: unswitched sockets
Post by Beanzy on Nov 19^th, 2004, 6:47am

Shocked Plug! why don't you have the regs? They'd be handy for quoting. :D

ANyway 537-04 isn't relevant to normal isolation proceedures. The whole section is about devices for emergency switching, so he's been quoting out of context.

For any additional requirements for functional switching he needs to look at 537-05. In this he'll see that 537-05-04 makes him look like a plonker. And no I'm not quoting it here....... get the book!

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well ok just the once mind you, I don't want you to think I'm going soft or anything;

537-05-04 A plug and socket-outlet of rating not exceeding 16 A may be used as a switching device.

Now buy the bleedin book! ;D

Title: Re: unswitched sockets
Post by L.Spark on Nov 19^th, 2004, 1:11pm

It is in there plugwash, and yea I offered up my blue book for nothing to mr PW, but was no intrest beanzy lol ::) ;D

Title: Re: unswitched sockets
Post by ban-all-sheds on Nov 19^th, 2004, 8:06pm

wrote on Nov 19^th, 2004, 1:11pm:

It is in there plugwash, and yea I offered up my blue book for nothing to mr PW, but was no intrest beanzy lol ::) ;D

Is it a loose-leaf one?

Title: Re: unswitched sockets
Post by rabbit_rabbit on Nov 19^th, 2004, 8:18pm

Switching the MCB/pulling the fuse, switching the main isolator or pulling the main 60A/100A fuse sure does isolate the circuit.

Agree with Chubbs contribution.

RR

Title: Re: unswitched sockets
Post by L.Spark on Nov 20^th, 2004, 12:09am

wrote on Nov 19^th, 2004, 8:06pm:

Is it a loose-leaf one?

Nope, otherwise probably would have just updated that rather than replace the book ::)

Actualy I did amend the book but for various reasons the brown book was aquired :)