ok, heres dilema;

had a wall knocked down downstairs (house) and an rsj put in
it was load bearing

we had this done in the living room and in the kitchen.

we got told at the time that, if we ever had the loft converted the walls would have to go back, the living room one as far as i know

can anyone see a way arround it? ive got someware to stick the stairs

there must be another way of doing this?

cheers

ss

lol cheers
yeh, it was an internal wall
its a mid terrice aswell if that makes a difference
the walls wer like

the red walls were the ones removed and replaced with rsjs

ss

yup its front to back
also, the wall that is above the middle wall(on the ground floor layout) is only 2 inch block  ??? be ok?
so you think its possible to do if steels were put in from front to back?
if theyy would put it it would mean roof off right?
lol

of course i would consult a struct engineer, ittad have to go through planning oddice anyway
but wanted to know if it was possible and if so how

cheers agen

ss

dont know anyone who has lol

if it was to go the way of increased joists would they run at oppotites to the ones that are there at the moment?
when you say pillars, would they come all the way up from the ground floor?
just exploring different ideas this boring wet saturday  

cheers

ss

yup, ya could look at it like that  

cheers for the advice

ss

ok mate, ill check tomorrow, and let ya know

nice one


ps at the mo they look like they are 3*1s or something, with 3 big joists, probrably 6*2 running across spaced evenly out, ill get a photo if thats not to clear but im thinking that its part of the truss

oh and the rsj sits on about 6 inch of brick left from the old wall which still jut out and are boxed in (again ill give a photo)

cheers

its gunna go through the dept as gotta be above board for if ever it was sold

cheers

ss

In other words SS you wil be OK so long as your hobby isn't weightlifting.  

Am I miss reading this ... the impression i got was the existing steels were to act as a break between spans and the info given to s.s,. was that the original walls, now rsj'swould have to be replaced to act as bearers for sturdier floor joist, and I considered that the steels now in place would surfice if they are of enough capacity.?
A new joist chopped into your half of a party wall is sufficient bearer, alternately they can be sat on joist hangers and you have the added bonus of fixing the original to the new, Joisting is usually one of the lesser problems to overcome, its the fire issues that are the real bug bears.

[quote author=Robbo  link=1096062922/15#16 date=1096206472] Joisting is usually one of the lesser problems to overcome, its the fire issues that are the real bug bears. [/quote]

yes, they are a pain in the backside

and three steels thats prpbrably inline with my luck but i hope not

ss

Provided you can get the bearing in the party walls I would do it like this, red squares are steels, brown lines timbers

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/roof1.bmp

Steel long enough to go front to back would start to become too deep, reducing head room and be hard to get hold of, most steel stockholders keep 6.0m lengths. Was involved with a mansard roof where the steels went between party walls and were in two pieces joined with plates, made them easier to install and handle, pulled then up with a barrow hoist and manhandled into place.

Where are you measuring the 2.34m height?

Jason

Reading your posts again you say  the rafters 3x1 and mention the word truss.

How old is the house, does it have a traditional cut roof or modern trusses, perhaps a general pic of the loft may clear things up.

Jason

Are the existing joists running in the same direction as the red lines that indicates the steels in your original drawing? if so I posted thinking they ran the other way.
Now this gives you 3.6 to the internal divideing wall right? So could you not then use 8x2 at 4.2mtr  champfered at one end (the pitch of the roof angle)and tucked in tight over the wall plate and nailed to the bottom of the rafters, the other end would overhang the central wall by.6 of a mtr. If you then repeated this from the other side but placing the new joist the opposite side of the corresponding rafter on that side the middle could be bolted together as you have a now 1.2mtr of double joist, may possibly need to add a corse of brick to the central wall for levels.
What you have in your loft is not a conventional factory type made fink truss but more a kind of mish mash of hangers, purlin struts and collar ties all serving a specific purpose. You obviously need to remove theese so my opinion is that you will need to install two further purlins to compensate for all theese supports being removed.. excepting the original purlins. One problem that springs to mind is the need for a top hung velux window to act as a means of escape which I think needs to be around 1.5 mtr from the finished floor level and if there is a purlin there you may have a problem.
Also are you aware you will need to double board the second floor ceilings to half hour fire regs, possibly fire doors and self closers also and a wired integrated  smoke alarm system on all three floors, a minimum headroom for the stairs all enclosed to half hour fire with doors top and bottom, the list goes on.... lofts are a pain really when you consider the legalities of doing it by the book, as often as not you are better off building an extension if this option is open to you as once the consideration of what space will be lost putting in a stairway compared to what will be gained may be a false economy in the bigger scheme of things when it comes to both practicallity and adding value to the property.... though having said that lofts are a great place to throw the kids up into when they are driving you nuts.

i think ill go the unnofficial route and board it out
what can be done without it being classed as a bedroom? i take it its a matter of stairs?

pain in the ass with all the regs

oh and the joists are alot firmer now ive done a bit more boarding- think the 4*2 with 2*2 across will be up to the job?

cheers

ss

I think the hobby room route is the best option, by the time the floor was strengthened and the slopes insulated you would have very little head room to make a worthwhile room.

Get a good quality pull down ladder to make access safe & easy without the loss of floor area that propper stairs would take up.

Jason

cheers everyone
looks like ill just board it out lol!
25k is not soo bad but its also no worth it for what we would get/ hastle we would have getting it done

cheers

ss

that is not true about trimming floor joists on the angle it is perfectly acceptable for a new build where those are acting as ceiling ties and not floor joists as in a loft conversion.Imagine this your new 8" floor joists meet up against your existing 4" rafters and you cut them off on the angle you are reducing them to about 65-100mm across their bearing on the wall plate would you be happy with 4" floor joists. Do it and see what building control have to say about it I am presently working on a job where the architect specified to do that and building control turned it down.The dormer construction is not the only purpose of a ridge steel the steel is there to also take the weight of the front roof, as ther are no longer any corresponding common rafters on the dormer side of the roof. Admittedly this can be acheived with timber but for a 5.59m span you would need the equiveelant of a 10x8 softwood beem and usually you dont have 10" headromm to spare in your average loft conversion

well, im lost

but i think ill go the unnofficial route

so do i add any timber to secure the rafters?

if i ran 2*2 across them and nailed into each one, this would give me a flat floor and a stronger one...i think  ???
but what would i do with em at the ends? just rest em on the end rafter nearest party wall or would i have to tie em in?

is this the best way to do it?

is the weight limit going to be of concern here?

any other pointers?

i plan to make it into a proper room
just use a loft ladder thats easy to get at  
would the weight of the plasterboard balls the roof up or anything?

anything else i should considder?

cheers guys

ss

ps, chappers, not far from you mate

so basicly im going between the main 4*2 joists that go between the party walls and support the joists("a good bit if its run onto the bearer at each end"- that the thingy?)
with 2*2 ontop of the existing 3*2 or what ever it is?


whats the reason for going ontop of the existing rather than across the existings?(just wondering)




"My thinking is that removing all the strutting will necessitate adding two more purlins to take the rafters"
the strutting is the 2*1 or so that runs read center of the loft floor  up to the center of the roof itself?

whats a purlin? lol


celotex- that horrible stuff(not as bad as rockwall) that has foil on one side and is a kind of yellow foam?

will nick some off the next site  

smoke alarms....
yup
any system that might be needed
i even have some pyro cable (its feckin expensive and basicly made totaly from copper- can work up to about 720c lol might do the trick eh?!)

cheers

ss

well, ill get on with the flooring then and come back for instructions lol
as your talk of purlins and everything lost me long ago lol

i dont ahve a clue
to be honest i dident even know i could get rid of any of the roof supports 8)
might leave em there
but the one that runs dead center would be nice to loose
here;
http://novoserve.no-ip.biz/P3050003.JPG

as for the cable, it was my revenge  
dont speak spark do you?
my chip isnt that great  

ss

firstly Robbo would agree with you about small dormers you can trim between doubled up rafters but only if some common rafters are left either side of the doubled ones.In fact my next job is one of those, but for a full box dormer you need something a bit beefier.

Robbo is right you will be better off going along the existing rafters as this is adding to their virtical rigidity and going across will have virtually no effect other than adding weight to the existing rafters, as you are adding a complete floor over the existing ceiling.This would only be of any benifit if you were supporting a descrete load eg spreading the weight of say a water tank over several of the ceiling joists.I would sugest you use timber of the same depth as any binders you already have running at right angles to the joists.

Depending on the strutting already in your loft I would expect you may need to add additional purlins to help prevent the roof sagging when you remove them.
A pulin is predominantly there to prevent your roof sagging from top to bottom and not so much to take a load. However a purlin wall in a loft conversion is a different matter as it is there to share the load with whatever you use to beef up the ridge when building a dormer.
I would also add some ceiling collars between the rafters to help the stability.

For occassional use I suspect that 9 times out of ten You could remove most of the struts in the roof add a couple of purlins, board out the floor and, although not the structural ideal, nothing is going to collapse many people have done it ..
wouldn't go over board on the purlin wall as it will be resting on the existing ceiling joists, and when adding extra supports consider whether what you are adding is actually benifiting the structure as a whole as you could just be adding more weight or transfering the load to a part that may struggle to take it

I would probably have some plans knocking about for a conversion for a house similar to yours, that you could have, might help with specs for venilation, windows, insulation etc

where abouts are you SS?

im hemel hempstead

shithole of the country lol

ill get some better pics

because i dont have a clue...well a vague one
of what the purlins are and what the 'binders' are ect

cheers

ss