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Moving my hot water cylinder (Read 36038 times)
CWatters
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Re: Moving my hot water cylinder
Reply #17 - Jun 5th, 2009, 10:40pm
 
Examples:

Header tank at 10 meters. Tap at 8 meters. Pressure = 1.0 - 0.8 = 0.2 = 2 meters of water.

Header tank at 20 meters. Tap at 18 meters. Pressure = 2.0 - 1.8 = 0.2 = 2 meters of water

Header tank at 1000 meters. Tap at 998 meters. Pressure = 100 - 99.8 = 0.2 = 2 meters of water.

Ok so far?

Note how the diameter of the pipe doesn't matter. You could put a large bulge in the pipe the size of a hot water cylinder anywhere you like. Makes no difference to the static pressure.




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« Last Edit: Jun 5th, 2009, 10:41pm by CWatters »  
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thescruff
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Re: Moving my hot water cylinder
Reply #18 - Jun 5th, 2009, 11:17pm
 
You are still missing the point.

Draw a straight line from the tank to the ground floor and call it one bar because its 10m long, now calibrate it into 1m drawoffs.

10m =1bar
9m=0.9bar
8m=0.8bar
7m=0.7bar
6m=0.6bar
5m=0.5bar
4m=0.4bar
3m=0.3bar
2m=0.2bar
1.5m=0.15bar call this the bottom of the cylinder.
1m=0.1bar,

Now notice the connection from the top of the cylinder=500mm 0.05bar.

The highest point in the system is the top of the cylinder, or the pipe from it, and not the floor it is standing on.

The static pressure (head) is as my drawing, ok give or take a bit for the depth of the water.

Note;- the diameter of the pipe doesn't matter, true, however a bigger pipe would deliver more water
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thescruff
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Re: Moving my hot water cylinder
Reply #19 - Jun 5th, 2009, 11:22pm
 
CWatters wrote on Jun 5th, 2009, 10:31pm:
thescruff wrote on Jun 5th, 2009, 8:40pm:
Think about it in imaginary terms.

We have a storage tank 10m in the air, therefor at ground zero we have 1bar.

If I connect a hose to the end of the pipe, and walk it up the stairs, the higher I get the lower the pressure will be, until I get to the water level whereas the water will stop running.



You make my point for me. Looking at your diagram of the existing system... The dimension arrows suggest that the head doesn't depend on the height of the tap but clearly it does.
 


The head depends on the highest point, be it a tap/shower rose or the pipework.

If you lower the rose in a shower the pressure increases, by 0.1bar per/m.
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Re: Moving my hot water cylinder
Reply #20 - Jun 6th, 2009, 1:07am
 
Is this any clearer.

...
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CWatters
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Re: Moving my hot water cylinder
Reply #21 - Jun 6th, 2009, 7:44pm
 
I know and understand all of that and a lot more.  However your diagram still doesn't quite show how to calculate the pressure at the tap itself.  See if you agree with this one..

Edit: For some reason it's hard to read the text. Click on it to make it readable.

...

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« Last Edit: Jun 6th, 2009, 8:47pm by CWatters »  
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greg
Re: Moving my hot water cylinder
Reply #22 - Jul 8th, 2009, 8:02pm
 
With Scruff on this one, in plumbing systems, the head is measured from base of cistern to highest point.
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Re: Moving my hot water cylinder
Reply #23 - Jul 21st, 2009, 7:03am
 
It's quite clearly explained here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_head   Grin
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Would all Third Party Apologists kindly mind their own business .....
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CWatters
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Re: Moving my hot water cylinder
Reply #24 - Jul 29th, 2009, 5:33pm
 
Quote:
With Scruff on this one, in plumbing systems, the head is measured from base of cistern to highest point.


Ok I can buy that this is the definition of the "system head" but what matters is the pressure at the tap not at the bottom of the cistern.

Lowering the cistern increases the pressure at the bottom of the cistern but does nothing to increase pressure at the tap. The only way to do that is to raise the expansion tank or lower the tap.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=water+pressure+head++%22above+the+tap%22&...









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Re: Moving my hot water cylinder
Reply #25 - Jul 30th, 2009, 12:54am
 
Wrong CW.

Lowering the outlet at the top of the cylinder will increase the head in this case, to the next highest point, the pipes in the loft.

You could get a secondary head, if the top of the cylinder to the outlet is greater than the storage tank to the highest point.
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Re: Moving my hot water cylinder
Reply #26 - Jul 30th, 2009, 3:28am
 
Quote:
Lowering the cistern increases the pressure at the bottom of the cistern but does nothing to increase pressure at the tap. The only way to do that is to raise the expansion tank or lower the tap.


Yep  Grin








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bill577
Re: Moving my hot water cylinder
Reply #27 - Jul 30th, 2009, 6:32pm
 
I would have to agree with.... cw ,  if the head is measured from the bottom of the cold water tank to the highest tap, it doesnt matter where the hot water cylinder is.
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Re: Moving my hot water cylinder
Reply #28 - Jul 30th, 2009, 11:20pm
 
Quote:
I would have to agree with.... cw ,  if the head is measured from the bottom of the cold water tank to the highest tap, it doesn't matter where the hot water cylinder is.



And you would also be wrong bill  Shocked
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Re: Moving my hot water cylinder
Reply #29 - Jul 31st, 2009, 2:12am
 
no expert here but you need the mass to be as high as possible otherwise your hydro electric dams would be 20 foot high Grin Grin

you need volume[mass] x height to give weight[ pressure]

a bit off pipe 200 ft tall above a tank will give you high pressure/flow for a very short time because the body off the water is low down

height is weight volume is weight so volume at height weighs more Roll Eyes
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big all ---------------  we are all still learning
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CWatters
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Re: Moving my hot water cylinder
Reply #30 - Jul 31st, 2009, 7:20pm
 
Ok my last attempt to convince you all....

I contend that the pressure at the tap is the same in all of the following. If the drawings aren't clear clicking on them should improve.

Original "high" cylinder...
...

Lowered cylinder..
...

Lowered cylinder with lowered take off...
...

Obviously I can't vouch for the flow rate on that last one  Smiley but the static pressure is the same..
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Re: Moving my hot water cylinder
Reply #31 - Jul 31st, 2009, 9:07pm
 
Now do another one with the connection out the cylinder lowered to the floor level.

Or are you deliberately leaving  it stuck up in the air a 1mtr.
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bill577
Re: Moving my hot water cylinder
Reply #32 - Jul 31st, 2009, 9:18pm
 
if the connection of the hot water cylinder is taken to the floor, it will still have the same head once it has climbed back up to the tap, sorry I still cant see how your theory holds water scruff Smiley
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thescruff
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Re: Moving my hot water cylinder
Reply #33 - Aug 1st, 2009, 12:09am
 
You ain't trying Bill, and it ain't theory.  Shocked The head is the distance to the highest part of the system, in this case the pipe from the cylinder is higher than the outlet, so by lowering the pipe you increase the head.

Head is not the higher the better, although it works out that way most of the time, but the greater the distance betwen the storage tank and the highest part, not necessarily the outlet.

Read this and see if it's any clearer, they are talking of fill head, which is slightly more than static head by the distance to the outlet.

Also notice the negative head, then under stand how the head increases as you lower the outlet.

http://www.stuart-turner.co.uk/media/5273-Installation-Monsoon-Universal-U1.5-2....

In the next pdf look at fig5 and you should be getting warm  Roll Eyes

http://www.stuart-turner.co.uk/media/5199-Installation-Monsoon-Standard-1.5-2.0-...
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« Last Edit: Aug 1st, 2009, 12:18am by thescruff »  
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