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A strange situation ... (Read 14166 times)
rgirling
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Re: A strange situation ...
Reply #24 - Dec 11th, 2015, 1:01pm
 
Immediately I close it, most of the time, especially at night, which is why I leave one cracked open. The noise also stops if I depress any of the toilet ball cocks, but it would as they're off the same supply.

Once water is drawn from the tank (and, therefore, lowering the level, I suppose), the noise goes away and often for several hours, but rarely more than a day, once all taps are closed. There's a gate valve on the downpipes for the cold supply from the tank, but shutting that makes no difference either (although I accept they're notorious for letting by).

Ray
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thescruff
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Re: A strange situation ...
Reply #23 - Dec 11th, 2015, 9:05am
 
When you crack open a cold tap to stop the noise, how long before the noise comes back.
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rgirling
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Re: A strange situation ...
Reply #22 - Dec 10th, 2015, 8:42pm
 
I believe that it does sometimes stop of its own accord, but - to be honest - I crack open a tank-fed cold tap to stop the noise, as it's so annoying. I'm not saying it's very loud, but it's insistent and the vibration is worrying in case it affects joints in the system.

Ray
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Re: A strange situation ...
Reply #21 - Dec 10th, 2015, 6:46pm
 
I had a similar situation recently, but the vibrating was happening when the taps were on. It appeared that there was air being drawn in through the vent pipe so I lifted the vent up higher and that solved it.

Could well be that air is being drawn in when your taps are on and the vibrating is the air trying to work its way back up again. Not sure how or why as I wouldn't expect there to be a vent on the cold feeds from the tank, but who knows what happens over the years under floorboards and what may be cross connected where. Could also be a dead leg somewhere full of air causing the same effect.

Does the vibrating ever stop of its own accord?
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Re: A strange situation ...
Reply #20 - Dec 10th, 2015, 10:23am
 
http://www.screwfix.com/search?search=non+return+valve

Some are built in (quality mixer taps) for example, others are separate
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rgirling
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Re: A strange situation ...
Reply #19 - Dec 9th, 2015, 9:10pm
 
Could you clarify what a check valve is, please? The pipe feeds the cold taps, toilets and bath. The indirect has its own feed. There is probably 10 metres of pipe to the bath. I can trace most of the upper floor, hardly any of the downstairs, due to layout of the house.

Ray
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Re: A strange situation ...
Reply #18 - Dec 9th, 2015, 4:08pm
 
Lets reword it slightly. I've never seen or heard of a tank cold supply vibrating, other than from an external source in the 57 years since I started in the trade.

If the tank cold feed is vibrating then something is causing it, so we need to look at the pipe and fittings.

How far can you trace it.

Is there to your knowledge any fittings that maybe unusual.

Is there a check valve on the pipe anywhere.

Is the water in the tank clean and no signs of a backflow.

Is the pipe the cold supply to all the outlets or the cylinder.

How far from Bath are you.

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rgirling
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Re: A strange situation ...
Reply #17 - Dec 9th, 2015, 10:25am
 
It is the cold supply to the house, excepting the kitchen sink, which is mains-fed cold. Therefore it supplies all cold taps and toilets, passing down through the airing cupboard and then beneath the floor, where it tees off to its various outlets.

There is no vibration in, or caused by, the mains feed. It may be "swinging about in the breeze" but the (new) tank valve is not the cause of the vibration - I thought that I had established that yesterday by depressing the valve as suggested, which made no difference. You may notice that there is an isolating lever on the mains feed. The vibration continues with that closed.

The vibration continues even with the mains shut off (at the stop cock or at the meter), which seems to me to rule out any problem with the jumper (if any) in the stop cock. For my money, this seems to support the fact that the vibration is caused by something within the tank-fed cold water system, but you already say that this is not possible.

I can only re-iterate that this is where the vibration is coming from.

Ray
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Re: A strange situation ...
Reply #16 - Dec 8th, 2015, 6:01pm
 
Ok quicly because I have to go referee.

Where does that pipe go and is it connected to another pipe ?.

Looking at the pics my original suggestions haven't changed.

The mains feed is swinging about in the breeze, and still the most likely problem.

I'm sure if we stick with it we'll track it down eventually
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rgirling
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Re: A strange situation ... UPDATE
Reply #15 - Dec 8th, 2015, 10:30am
 
Update

When the vibration occurred again, I went to the loft and depressed the float. Although water came in, the vibration was unaffected. I have confirmed that it is coming from the cold supply that emerges from the base of the tank and I have taken pictures as requested. To save forum space, I've written a page to host the pictures at http://www.raygirling.co.uk/loftpics.htm

I hope the pictures are good enough, if not I'll take others with a SLR instead of a mobile.

Ray
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rgirling
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Re: A strange situation ...
Reply #14 - Dec 6th, 2015, 12:21pm
 
Thanks for the comprehensive reply - I do appreciate the help. I'll answer in the order asked:

The main is not shared.
All valves have been renewed, including the three toilet valves.
The cylinder is tank fed.
There is an expansion vessel for the pumped CH system, but nowhere near the pipes in question.

The noise does not occur as the tank is completing being filled. The tank valve, when closed, does not allow any by-pass, as it's new. Three different types of tank valve have been tried, resulting in no difference whatsoever.

I accept that - when cold water is used from a tank-fed tap - this will eventually cause the tank level to drop, opening the valve and replenishing the tank. This, of course, also applies to the tank-fed hot taps, but opening those has no effect on the noise whatsoever.

I have felt the vibration in the cold feed coming from the tank. There is no vibration from the mains feed to the tank at any stage. The vibration can be also felt in the tank-fed cold taps as they are released by the slightest fraction and before this stops the vibration. The vibration re-occurs as the tap is closed. Running the tap sometimes cures the vibration for different lengths of time.

I cannot imagine that letting a couple of drops of water per second will cause an instant drop in the level of the storage tank, as it takes quite a while for the tank valve to react to a drop in level (the release of the tank valve can be heard as the valve opens (after washing or a toilet flush, for example) and no such noise occurs when cracking open the cold tank-fed taps by such a tiny amount.

Photographs will follow, once the noise re-occurs and I've had a chance to depress the tank valve as you suggest. The noise is not constant, occurs randomly - mostly after a long period of tank inactivity - but is unbelievably annoying, as you can imagine!

Ray
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Re: A strange situation ...
Reply #13 - Dec 5th, 2015, 10:11am
 
Ok perhaps a little plumber lesson.  Grin

As the storage tank fills the ballvalve slowly closes, and its the last half a pint shall we say that causes the noise, therefor when you run any cold tap the ball drops slightly and the noise stops.

Low pressure tank fed supplies do not make vibrations, unless there's a pump or anything mechanical that can cause it.

The above is why I want the pics to see whether anything is noticeably wrong.

It may be a loose washer/jumper in the stopcock or several other problems like unfixed pipes but at the moment it points to the storage tank.

You can easily proof my point by pressing the ball down next time it makes a noise.

There's is also a chance it may be your neighbour, so we should explore that posiblity as well, if it's a shared main, so some back ground info please.

Have you checked all the outlets especially the wc valves.

Is the cylinder fed from the tank or mains.

Is there an expansion vessel anywhere near the pipes.
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rgirling
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Re: A strange situation ...
Reply #12 - Dec 5th, 2015, 9:49am
 
I could, but I'm back on my FluidMaster valve, as the equilibrium brass one was too noisy and made no difference anyway.

It's not the CW supply pipe to the tank that's thrumming, it's the cold supply from the tank. The noise can be halted immediately by opening any non-mains-fed cold tap, returning immediately when closed. Leaving such a cold tap cracked open by the slightest amount is a cure, but not an environmentally-friendly one!

When the pressure is released by opening a tap, the vibration can be felt in the tap itself and I've made sure that the vibration is only coming from the "down" pipe from the tank, not the supply, nor is it transmitted by contact with the rising main to the tank. Thanks, BTW, for all the help.

Ray
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Re: A strange situation ...
Reply #11 - Dec 4th, 2015, 9:15pm
 
Ray can you post a pic shower where the ballvalve connects to the storage tank inside and out please, include the ballvalve as well
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Re: A strange situation ...
Reply #10 - Dec 4th, 2015, 12:31pm
 
Well, I've felt a few in my time, but I feel like a very big one at the moment! I now discover that - far from being the cold supply pipe to the tank that is vibrating, it's the cold water supply pipe FROM the tank that is at the root of the problem. It seems that the pipe is "thrumming" when the storage tank is full. Any release of cold water, however small, at any tank-supplied cold tap, halts it at once, but it re-appears when the tank is full again.

I thought that it might be the level of water in the tank was too high, creating too much pressure in the supply, so I reduced the level by adjusting the float downwards, but no luck. I feel that it may be caused by vibration where the pipes pass through joists below the floors. I can get to most of these but - before I do - may I seek your indulgence with another question, please?

If you think there is no other cure, would it be OK to use expanding foam to insulate the pipework from the joist timbers, or is there a better way?

So sorry to be such a pain. If only I'd have counted the emerging pipes correctly in the first place, I wouldn't feel such a t***!  Roll Eyes

Ray
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Re: A strange situation ...
Reply #9 - Nov 15th, 2015, 8:22pm
 
I wouldn't touch it unless there's a problem a few years down the road.
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Re: A strange situation ...
Reply #8 - Nov 14th, 2015, 11:37pm
 
I guess what I'm asking is how does it work and/or how do I know it's working? I suppose it contains a diaphragm which gives some leeway to sudden increases in water pressure, but do I need to check the pressure at the Schrader valve or not? If so, when (water running, still, etc.), and is an accurate tyre pressure gauge good enough?

Sorry, that's more than one question!

Ray
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