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Message started by londonman on Feb 27th, 2010, 3:05pm

Title: Failed rendering - recommended approach
Post by londonman on Feb 27th, 2010, 3:05pm

The rendering on the corner of our house has failed. I will get my plasterer in to do the work but I was wondering how soon before he comes I should hack off the old render.  

Or is this something that I should leave to the summer?  Thinking about water getting down inside behind the render.  I'm actually probably going to get him to redo the entire bottom part of the front of the wall as it all sounds loose.  Getting the new render to bond to the underlying grotty stone is going to be fun.

Underlying wall construction is friable stone on grotty lime mortar.






Thanks

Title: Re: Failed rendering - recommended approach
Post by JerryD on Mar 1st, 2010, 8:08pm

My advice would be to remove the old render as soon as you can so that rainwater isn't trapped behind it.  The bare sections of wall won't get any wetter than light damping from rain but trapped water will soak through much more easily.

Title: Re: Failed rendering - recommended approach
Post by londonman on Mar 2nd, 2010, 9:01pm

Good point, Jerry.  

Title: Re: Failed rendering - recommended approach
Post by londonman on Mar 3rd, 2010, 1:19pm

I hacked off some of the rendering.

The good news is that it isn't stone, as I'd thought, but brick.  The bad news is that many of the bricks have spalled badly.  The bricks behind the rendering are sopping wet (hardly surprising).

Thing is...what to do?  

Title: Re: Failed rendering - recommended approach
Post by JerryD on Mar 3rd, 2010, 5:34pm

Hack it all off, let the walls dry (good weather is just around the corner.....) then get a GOOD plasterer to re-render using waterproofer in the render mix.  The spalled bricks should be raked to remove all loose debris.

Title: Re: Failed rendering - recommended approach
Post by londonman on Mar 4th, 2010, 12:49pm

Thanks, Jerry.  Just read about Building Regs. Seem to want me to take out another mortgage and apply insulating render!  Yeah...right.

Title: Re: Failed rendering - recommended approach
Post by JerryD on Mar 7th, 2010, 8:48pm

What? :o

Title: Re: Failed rendering - recommended approach
Post by londonman on Mar 8th, 2010, 10:00pm

Yup...I was as surprised as you are but it is there in black and white.

Building Control Guidance Note
Subject
CONSERVATION OF FUEL AND POWER 2006.
Guide 5 – APPROVED DOCUMENT L1B Conservation of fuel and power – Work in existing dwellings.
24
Issued 07/04/06
Rev
Page
1 of 11
From 6th April 2006 there are significant changes to the Building Regulations that cover the Conservation of Fuel and Power in buildings. Energy performance relating to works and extensions in existing buildings is based on a revised elemental approach in which insulation and efficiency thresholds are set for individual parts of the building envelope and services.
There are requirements for standards to be achieved for ‘Thermal Elements’ (walls, floors and roofs), ‘Controlled Fittings’ (windows, doors and similar fittings) and ‘Controlled Services’ (heating, hot water, ventilation systems and lighting). Regulations apply whether as part of an extension, dividing a house into flats, replacing windows, extending a heating system or applying render to a gable wall, or changing a buildings energy status.
Extract of L1. GUIDANCE ON THERMAL ELEMENTS.
Thermal Elements - (Refer to Guide 24 – (2) for further guidance) refers to a wall, floor or roof that separates the heated or cooled space from the outside. Works relating to thermal elements can arise in building an extension, a material change of use, a material alteration, changing a buildings energy status or when carrying out other renovation works. Refer to guide 24 (2).
The requirements for ‘Thermal Elements’ represent a significant change in regulation since it requires efficiency improvements whenever a roof, wall or floor is replaced or renovated. Thus the replacement of render or tile hanging to a wall will require insulation works to be undertaken at the same time. The AD gives guidance on the U values that should be achieved depending on whether an element is newly constructed, rebuilt, retained, replaced or renovated. NOTE: consider carefully the potential for condensation problems and the controls necessary to prevent it when upgrading existing construction).
Renovation of ‘Thermal Elements’: is defined as the provision or replacement of a construction layer, such as external render, tile hanging or internal plaster. It would not include decorations or re-pointing brickwork. Where 25% or more of an elements surface area is to be renovated the whole element should be thermally improved (see AD L1B Table 4 (b) extract below).

Title: Re: Failed rendering - recommended approach
Post by Zambezi on Mar 9th, 2010, 8:17am

Surely your job is not included in the BN because it is less than 25% of the wall/property (depending on how you interpret the last line).

Title: Re: Failed rendering - recommended approach
Post by Joiner on Mar 9th, 2010, 3:57pm

Agree with Zam and share JD's total amazement!

And REPAIR isn't replacement. Surely?

Title: Re: Failed rendering - recommended approach
Post by londonman on Mar 9th, 2010, 4:21pm

Well, as ever, all open to interpretation.

Worse case scenario - remove render from areas of one wall where it is 'live'. The total area removed is about 25% of that walls' area.  A wall is defined as a thermal element.  BC kicks in.

If all four walls of a house are deemed to be 'a' thermal element ie considered all together then I'd be OK.

Reading the grammar of the text and other sources, they talk about a window being a thermal element ...so why not an individual wall?

Any road, I'm not telling them and in any case it will be well below 25% of even one wall. I'll make damn sure of that!

Title: Re: Failed rendering - recommended approach
Post by Joiner on Mar 9th, 2010, 4:31pm

Fair enough. How much to keep our mouths shut? ;)

Title: Re: Failed rendering - recommended approach
Post by Joiner on Mar 10th, 2010, 9:23am

I posted LM's thread on the ebuild site, thinking it might draw in a few more responses to the BR idiocy.

Temp/Cwatters posted a response:

http://www.ebuild.co.uk/forums/messages/11009/23349.html?1268209750

And I think the devil is in this detail:

"Do I need Building Regulation Approval to carry out repairs to my house?

No, if the repairs are of a minor nature, such as repointing and replacing a small area of brickwork and you are replacing like for like. If you are replacing or renovating more than 25% of the external structure, you do require approval. This includes replacing the felt on a flat roof, re-roofing a tiled roof, repointing or rendering an external wall, if the area is more than 25% of that roof or wall."

The relevent bit is (and I've capitalized the operative word) "repointing or rendering AN external wall". Singular. One wall. Had it said "external WALLS" then the reference would have been to the whole house.

Bloody lunacy.

Title: Re: Failed rendering - recommended approach
Post by londonman on Mar 10th, 2010, 10:26am

You are correct. After reading the other thread I wondered whether the word 'an' was an interpretation but it is not.  I copy this from the Approved Document...

‘Renovation’ in relation to a thermal element means the provision of a new layer in the thermal element or the replacement of an existing layer, but excludes decorative finishes, and ‘renovate’ shall be construed accordingly.
New paragraphs (2A) and (2B) are added to Regulation 2 as follows.
(2A) In these Thermal element’ means a wall, floor or roof (but does not include windows, doors, roof windows or roof-lights) which separates a thermally conditioned part of the building (‘the conditioned space’) from:

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