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https://www.askthetrades.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl DIY Forum >> Carpentry Questions >> Carpentry!! https://www.askthetrades.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1143130874 Message started by mattnite on Mar 23^rd, 2006, 3:52pm

Title: Carpentry!!
Post by mattnite on Mar 23^rd, 2006, 3:52pm

Hi,
I put a post up a while ago regarding my intention to go into carpentry as a profession. I am 24, and obviously looking to do a course and start an apprentiship. I live in Sheffield and the local course is commonly know to be rubbish and there don't seem to be any opportunites to become an apprantice at 24. Can anyone help?- I will be willing to move anywhere including abroad to get the best training! I am looking to get into furniture making long-term.

cheers
Matt :)

Title: Re: Carpentry!!
Post by WOLF on Mar 23^rd, 2006, 7:05pm

i will see what i can find out for you, at the moment i am not looking at taking any one on,as i fairly recently "disbanded" a small firm for want of a better term, as i got sick of all the worries and was happy to be bought out!!
but i have heard things regards courses, will have to chase them up!! will try and get back to you with some options soon!!

Title: Re: Carpentry!!
Post by mattnite on Mar 24^th, 2006, 1:36pm

Hi Wolf,

Thats really good of you to help me! Thank you very much! :)

Matt

Title: Re: Carpentry!!
Post by Scrit on Mar 25^th, 2006, 9:28am

Hi Matt

Carpentry and furniture making are almost different ends of the spectrum. They are both working wood and use some of the same tools, but.....

Leeds College of Building still run some good courses on furniture-making and furniture manufacture (I believe that Richard Jones teaches there) as do Burnley College - who incidentally have a brilliant upholstery section run by Bevan Guy. The City University of Manchester (Manchester Poly as was) did run some good courses especially their furniture conservation courses, but they've cut back due to the government's funding regime.

If you are interested in persuing a career in furniture you might also want to try some of the medium-size furniture manufacturers such as Sutcliffe's in Todmorden (West Yorkshire) or Vale Upholstery (Mytholmroyd, West Yorks - they do traditional dowelled hardwood-framed chairs and settees) to see if they take on apprentices. Sorry, can't advise you about Sheffield, but there did used to be a large pine furniture industry out round Newark in Nottinghamshire to the south of you and I know that some of it turned over to hardwood in more recent years.

As to furniture making for a living, personally I think it's a fast track to the poorhouse in large parts of northern England. One difficulty is that everyone compares your prices to Ikea and expects you to price accordingly. You can find pockets where this is not the case, but it can take many years to gain acceptance.

Not trying to put you off, just trying to make you aware of what things are like.

On the opther hand if you are considering carpentry or joinery there are considerably more oppportunities. Maybe Coggy would care to comment about Sheffield?

Scrit

Title: Re: Carpentry!!
Post by big_all on Mar 25^th, 2006, 10:00am

wrote on Mar 25^th, 2006, 9:28am:

As to furniture making for a living, personally I think it's a fast track to the poorhouse in large parts of northern England. One difficulty is that everyone compares your prices to Ikea and expects you to price accordingly. You can find pockets where this is not the case, but it can take many years to gain acceptance.

Scrit

yep get this a lot an argos catolouge and"can you make this any cheaper"pointing at a flat pack bedroom set

and the answer is nope but i can build you a custom set that actualy enhanses your room dosnt need puting together and lasts a lifetime rather than 3 or 4 years

Title: Re: Carpentry!!
Post by Scrit on Mar 25^th, 2006, 11:55am

Problem is, BA, that you've still got to pay the rent whilst you're trying to find the customers with a bit more savvy/taste. Joinery puts bread on the table.

Scrit

Title: Re: Carpentry!!
Post by big_all on Mar 25^th, 2006, 2:06pm

wrote on Mar 25^th, 2006, 11:55am:

Problem is, BA, that you've still got to pay the rent whilst you're trying to find the customers with a bit more savvy/taste. Joinery puts bread on the table.

Scrit

yep spot on thats why the job description should be
cabinet maker bench joiner carpenter "basics plumber" "non part p electrics" "brickie"labourer"and decorator

best money made at what you do best

the other 80%every thing else ;D ;D ;D ::)

Title: Re: Carpentry!!
Post by Scrit on Mar 25^th, 2006, 2:20pm

wrote on Mar 25^th, 2006, 2:06pm:

Sounds like bespoke kitchen maker/fitter to me.....

Title: Re: Carpentry!!
Post by big_all on Mar 25^th, 2006, 3:25pm

all i am saying is you must turn your hand to whatever needs doing to finnish the job
and to fill the books in quiet times ;)

Title: Re: Carpentry!!
Post by Scrit on Mar 25^th, 2006, 3:38pm

Amen to that..... ;D

Title: Re: Carpentry!!
Post by CWatters on Mar 25^th, 2006, 5:25pm

Quote:

As to furniture making for a living, personally I think it's a fast track to the poorhouse in large parts of northern England.

I was at the Ideal Home Exhibition show on Friday and you can't help but notice a lot of very similar oak furniture being imported from Slovenia (or some new EEC country). Mostly tables and chairs but also sideboards, dressers and the like. It's not top quality but it's not rubbish either. Must be having some impact on the UK furniture building industry.

Title: Re: Carpentry!!
Post by woodsmith on Mar 25^th, 2006, 5:37pm

As a one man band I only know one person who makes a living solely from making furniture. He lives in an affluent area of the country and has built up the business over many years.

Big All wrote

Quote:

all i am saying is you must turn your hand to whatever needs doing to finnish the job
and to fill the books in quiet times

Too true, I've had a bad debt and now to catch up financially I'm fitting bathrooms for the next month :'(

Title: Re: Carpentry!!
Post by jasonB on Mar 25^th, 2006, 6:19pm

Same thing here, although I prefer the bespoke furniture there are not that many people willing to pay a couple of grand for a table particularly without seeing a finished one in the flesh.

Heres a list of jobs this year

- Bathroom, did have bespoke oak vanity, WC boxing & bathpanel
- Bathroom,Premade units
- Current project, knock master bedroom/on-suite/second bedroom into one, Some Bespoke joinery but wardrobes in dressing room were reduced to using the old panel doors due to £1500 worth of mosaic but client also wants me to make bed, bedside cabinets etc. See the progress so far
-Another bathroom with a couple of small cabinets
-Large wardrobe project £5K
-Pair occasional tables
-Bathroom
etc etc

If you can turn your hand to most things then you should not be out of work although it may not always be what you like to do.

Jason

Title: Re: Carpentry!!
Post by Scrit on Mar 25^th, 2006, 9:26pm

wrote on Mar 25^th, 2006, 5:25pm:

It has. The impact of the cheaper volume stuff going to Indonesia, Malaysia and China followed by the huge inroads into both the pine and low- to mid-market hardwood manufacturing sector has decimated the furniture manufacturing and sub-component sectors here. I now get a major auction notification once or twice a month on this type of business - either downsizing or cessation. If the guys in the automated industrial sector (these are all CNC-using businesses and already highly automated) can't survive and the price of equivalent mid-market products is sliding because of retail competition there will inevitably be a shake-out in the upper end of the market, too, due to an amount of financial pressure (maily driven by sliding retail prices). The only CNC people I know who are "thriving" are all doing either kitchen/bedroom/bathroom carcasses/doors or staircases, and I suspect a few of them are looking over their shoulders as well.

In this we are not alone. The industry in the Carolinas (USA) is contracting very quickly and even the Italian industry, famous for small, highly-automated shops is feeling the pinch.

I think that we are going towards a world where people either buy slightly klunky, so-so quality items from Eastern Europe or cheap and chearful from the Far East where the design is done here. But furniture manufacturing? I can see little future in it in the UK.

Scrit

PS Wanna buy a cheap CNC router? ;)

Title: Re: Carpentry!!
Post by splinter on Mar 25^th, 2006, 9:58pm

Scrit ,
It started over ten years ago or in reality twenty, and it makes me sick to think about all that crap from the far east especially China pouring into this country.
Ivegone from making one of pieces of furniture and bespoken joinery to what I am doing now, f***ing formwork.
Now I competing against eastern eroupians ,who will happily do my job for half the going rate .all I need now is some smart arse to tell me that there is a shortage of skilled trades in the building industry :(

Title: Re: Carpentry!!
Post by WOLF on Mar 26^th, 2006, 12:12am

Obviously the same complete TW@TS that sent me a letter this morning saying the CIS system is being scrapped now!!! with the taxman now going to be monitering what we earn direct!!!!

good bye wage packet!! >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
good bye (ONCE) Great Britain!!!!!

Title: Re: Carpentry!!
Post by Mr_Mike on Mar 26^th, 2006, 12:20am

Hi Matt,

Don't be disheartened by what you read here. At 24, you are young. The important thing is to learn and acquire knowledge, read as much as you can, and more importantly practice your skills. Do as much carpentry as you can, whether it be for friends & family, or, just for yourself for fun ! Making draws, boxes, whatever, you'll be learning more about working with wood than you'll be aware of. It can be a beautiful (& very frustrating at times!) material to work with.

I understand you want to get into furniture making long term and there are city & guilds fine woodwork 2 year diploma courses, or 3 year degree courses out there (Buckinghamshire Chilterns Uni / Rycotewood, etc) that would give you a basic grounding, but, you could even start on the NVQ / ICA level 2 route in wood occupations or bench joinery. They're not to be sniffed at. You may have to pay your own way through the course (they're often block release and you can take any old job just to pay your way through the course between the college weeks), but it's not hugely expensive (compared to the diploma/degree courses). You'll still be learning useful skills towards your long term goal of furniture making, like building carcasses, frame & panel doors, through and lapped dovetails, using and maintaining hand tools & power tools, working with hardwoods / softwoods / MDF / Plywood. It's all useful. If you can get work as a carpenter / joiner in the first instance, then who knows, you might find someone who is willing to pay for a one off piece of furniture made by you eventually. You have to start somewhere. You may find you enjoy it more than cabinet making in the long run !

Dig out your yellow pages / thomson local directorys and write to all the local carpenters / joinery shops explaining your situation & include a self stamped address enevlope. You may get paid next to nothing for your services, but you will be learning. You never stop learning regardless of how many years served.

If you want it bad enough, you'll get yourself sorted. Stay positive and don't get disheartened by what you read here ! Onwards and upwards ! ;)

Title: Re: Carpentry!!
Post by splinter on Mar 26^th, 2006, 7:41pm

Mr_Mike did you take a acid tab in 1968,Idon't think it has worn of yet.It is now 2006and everyone has to pay120% of their wages just to survive every week,that is if you are lucky to get 60-84 hours work a week. :(
Pray tell us Mr_MIKE how do you make a sucssessful living out off wood .This may give matt some useful short cuts in the money making world of draw and box making ;)

PS nearly forgot ONWARDS AND UPWARDS .................
now where is that acid tab I saved for when reality kicks back in ;D

Title: Re: Carpentry!!
Post by Mr_Mike on Mar 26^th, 2006, 8:43pm

Hello Splinter,

Actually I was born in '69.....was that the summer of love ? Dunno, I'd have to ask my Mum.

I think he'd probably want to neck a tab or two after reading the depressing (you might say realistic) responses to his initial post.

Re: Making draws & boxes, I wasn't suggesting he make a living from it. Merely that he starts to do something practical with his spare time to start learning, so that when he starts college he won't waste a day having to learn how to hold/use a chisel or hand plane properly.

He's 24 and wanting to get into the game. You have to be supportive & encouraging. He's not ready to be 'long in the tooth' before he's even started. I don't think a lot of the moaning that goes on is likely to help him much.

These days, you have to make your own luck to a certain extent. No one's gonna give you anything on a plate. He has to be pro-active in finding work / an employer, and if he's acquired a few skills already, they're more likely to take him on.

With regards to my good self, I get by. As much as I'd love to earn a living just through bespoke joinery, I too have to keep my head above water painting & decorating, tiling, etc. I'm not proud mate !

And re: your comments about onwards & upwards. Haven't you heard the expression 'You have to laugh otherwise you cry !', bulldog spirit, whatever you wanna call it. Maybe it's a London thing.

Now where did I put that purple ohm ? ;D

Title: Re: Carpentry!!
Post by splinter on Mar 26^th, 2006, 9:44pm

Mr -Mike ,
You are right I have been a "bit negative" in what I have said.
So to look on the positive side of ,I think I would be right in saying that there are people on this forum that have taken a career change much later in life than Matt and seem to be managing quite well ,so it is never to late
If you are starting from scratch I would still reccemend that course in Sheffield ,because it is the same course as any where else in the country and if you're enthusiasm is anything to go by you will get as much as you want out of the course.
To gain a living out of the carpentry trade I suggest you target just one section of the trade for now ( this is my personal opinion ).I suppose you can divide it into the follwing catagories ,joinery in a workshop ,first and second fix on site, kitchen fitting and my favourite formwork.
I would personally go for a small joinery shop that also does on site fixing.Once you have mastered this It will give you the basics of carpentry.
Then it is Upwards and Onwards ;)

Don't forget if you want to do it you will ;D

Title: Re: Carpentry!!
Post by Mr_Mike on Mar 26^th, 2006, 9:59pm

Yes Sir !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's more like it !!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Sweeet positivity !!!!!

Wooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh!!!!

I think that ohm is kicking in !!!! :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

Time to go n trim my toenails freehand with the old DW625.
Maybe, don't try that Matt...... :)

Title: Re: Carpentry!!
Post by splinter on Mar 26^th, 2006, 10:02pm

You are right there always pratice on someone elses toes first. :)

Title: Re: Carpentry!!
Post by mattnite on Apr 11^th, 2006, 5:06pm

Thanks to everyone for your advice- it's been really helpful! After reading the above comments I think for now I'm just going to get on a course and learn the basics of carpentry and joinery to get my foot on the ladder. The whole furniture making idea seems to be something that I could do as a sideline much later on when I'm experienced.
Basically I'm interested in all aspects of carpentry and don't mind having a go at anything. My main concern is that I'm going to earn a half decent living, and not have long periods out of work. Can anyone tell me what I could expect to earn in a workshop on a weekly basis roughly??

cheers! :)

Title: Re: Carpentry!!
Post by mattnite on Apr 11^th, 2006, 5:25pm

Also,

One of the things that attracts me to learning a trade is that they are universal and there is a worldwide demand. Has anyone had the experience of working abroad at all as a carpenter or joiner?

cheers!

Title: Re: Carpentry!!
Post by MarkS on Apr 22^nd, 2006, 4:55pm

In our area (Ripon/Harrogate) there seem to be lots of small workshops or one man bands making furniture. Many claim to be ex-Mouseman which seems to be the password. Looking in their workshops much of what is produced is a bit heavy/trad for my taste.

There is also Treske @ thirsk who seem to be doing OK. There are also a couple of smallish firms in the lakes (PHS ? something like that) who do some nice looking stuff and restoration work.

When I go into places like Barker & Stonehouse the furniture seems expensive and not particularly well made or finished, but they also seem to do very well. They do a couple of ranges of French wooden furniture which look OK.

Not knowing anything about it, how long does it take to make say a dresser (about as long as it would take me to write a specification document I suppose - it depends lol)

Has anyone tried doing a deal with one of the upmarket furniture places ? Or do they expect to make such a big margin that it isnt worth while ?

Title: Re: Carpentry!!
Post by Scrit on Apr 22^nd, 2006, 9:32pm

wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2006, 4:55pm:

Yes, but it is a well-healed area with traditional tastes, so they are catering for the market as opposed to ploughing their own furrow and creating a market. If you work for yourself as a maker you need to produce what will feed you and your family, which means for many doing what will sell, not what they would like to do.

wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2006, 4:55pm:

When I go into places like Barker & Stonehouse the furniture seems expensive and not particularly well made or finished, but they also seem to do very well. They do a couple of ranges of French wooden furniture which look OK.

The price is frequently what the market will stand, especially with firms like Barker & Stonehouse who use name/reputation to hold their prices. Do you know that it's actually damaging to charge too low a price for your product especially if you wish to be towards the upper end of the mass market?

wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2006, 4:55pm:

Not knowing anything about it, how long does it take to make say a dresser (about as long as it would take me to write a specification document I suppose - it depends lol)

How long does it take you to write a specification document? How long is a piece of string? I've made commercial lipped and veneered MDF "dressers" for restaurants at the rate of 6 to 8 a day (base and tops, parts only, CNC and pin-routed, lipped, profiled and machine sanded but still hand trimmed and detailed) with the assembly and spraying guys working at the same rate. The quamnity is down to sanding one component whilst the CNC cranks out the next and is pure, exhausting pressure work. The amount of time it takes is partly down to whether or not it is a repeat(able) design or a true one-off. Every customer wants a one-off, a much smaller percentage can or will pay for one, especially in hardwoods (unless it's a kitchen......)

wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2006, 4:55pm:

Has anyone tried doing a deal with one of the upmarket furniture places? Or do they expect to make such a big margin that it isnt worth while?

Yes. I have sold to a couple of buying groups in the past and even one of the big stores in London many years back. More recently I have made components and complete furniture for other firms, Wholesale sales to retailers were always a "filler" when bespoke was in short supply. The retailers demand a 100% to 150% mark-up from our prices and we find ourselves in competition with factories with far lower costs per unit and materials costs - so doing work for the big guys turns money over but generally doesn't earn you that much. They are slow payers (60 to 90 days), complain about everything to get their price down and play smaller firms off against each other. They also tend to want you to change your product to suit their (generally taste-devoid) buyer and produce things in such short deadlines or in such huge quantities (for a small maker) that you're soon on the treadmill. Lastly they'll nick your designs as soon as look at you. Sadly, very few in this world can do a Thomas Moser which is why so many potentially good makers end up doing kitchens or bedrooms or teach woodwork rather than making.

The commercial reality is that, unless you are exceptionally gifted and lucky, you need to be in precisely the right area with exactly the right contacts to make a bespoke cabinet shop viable. If you're not both of those, you're nearer to failure unless you become pragmatic and commercialise your work, mix cabinetry with joinery and anything else that comes in or send the wife out to work! ;D

Despite the foregoing I enjoy my job :o , and the challenges of an ever changing work load, but I still wish I could do more high end stuff than I do. Despite that there is always a great deal of satisfaction in being able to look at a job, be it a complete piece of furniture, a replacement kitchen worktop, a radiator cabinet, a newly hung front door or just a well-made picket fence and say to myself "I made that"

Scrit

Title: Re: Carpentry!!
Post by riaan on Jul 24^th, 2006, 11:53pm

I`m starting my third year of part time carpentry studies and is looking for a company to take me on as an adult apprentice. I am CMC registered and the company will be receiving grants. Anybody give some advise

Title: Re: Carpentry!!
Post by WOLF on Jul 25^th, 2006, 3:45pm

Firstly riaan, welcome to this here forum.........

secondly putting the area of the country you reside in would be a good thing,..... also putting your gender would be a good help to, from the log in name , i get this sneaky feeling you may, just may be a girlie!!(no offence meant either...its just i've already made that particular mistake once this year!!! calling a lady a man, ...ooops!!!:o)

Quote:

and the company will be receiving grants

Hmm bribary..what a good idea!!! LOL ;D

regards Matt

Title: Re: Carpentry!!
Post by Sandy on Jul 25^th, 2006, 8:56pm

Hi Mattnite,

You don't live to far away from neck of the woods. So I know how difficult it is to find any wood occupation/joinery whatever-the-hell these colleges want to call their courses in this area.

I spent months looking for a college around Leeds/Bradford/Wakefield that would allow me to enrol and participate in a joinery course. No luck in Leeds(not too dissapointing though, it's a sh*t h0le there, even though it is my home town) or Bradford. They would only take people who were doing the NVQ Course. The only way I could do the NVQ course is if I was in the industry, but therein is the problem. How do you get into the industry if you haven't any quals? I eventually found a course at Wakefield College (Whitwood Campus in Castleford). I've just finished a 2yr Bench Joinery Course. The qualification is an ICA (Intermediary Construction Award). It's exactly the same course and runs with the same classes (Part time Evening aswell as day courses) as the NVQ lads/lasses. It means I didn't have to be in the industry to get the same qualification. All my work was signed of by tutors and the certificate is still issued by CITB and City and Guilds. They also do the Site Joinery ther aswell. The college isn't bad and they are moving sites just down the road next year, so the facilities should be spot on (Oh! and the tutors are pretty good aswell, which helps).

If you already have a decent knowledge of joinery, Leeds College of Art and Design run a furniture design and manufacturing course over 2 yrs which will give you a diploma in something.

Hope this helps, but don't get down about it. Just keep looking.

Sandy