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https://www.askthetrades.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl DIY Forum >> Carpentry Questions >> Reasonable Request https://www.askthetrades.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1154978665 Message started by Sandy on Aug 7^th, 2006, 8:24pm

Title: Reasonable Request
Post by Sandy on Aug 7^th, 2006, 8:24pm

I'm hoping some of you more "professionals" can help out. I have been casually requested to make a desk for a family friend and they are willing to pay for it (not the usual 'Oh I'll ask so-and-so coz they'll do it cheap' type of carry on). So, I'm thinking, 'Hoorah!! my first decent commission'.

I can calculate the going rate and work out how much I would be looking at charging. However, they want it made from Maple and Walnut. I know this isn't going to be a cheap job for them, even though I am only at rough drawing stage.

But, would it be a bit rude of me to ask for some funds up front to pay for the materials given that it isn't just a run of the mill cheapy pine (or similar, although nothing wrong with pine in the right situation). Is it the done thing to stump up the money myself and just send them the final bill, or, do I draw up a contract (a bit serious) for a deposit to cover initial materials?

Any advice will be superb. Thanks.

Title: Re: Reasonable Request
Post by splinter on Aug 7^th, 2006, 8:58pm

I think because of the materials involved there might be quite a lot of consultion between you and you're "customer" .It would pay you come up with some designs /pictures of tables that they may like ,do they want birds-eye maple or quartered maple for the top etc .Try and give them a price list for all these variations of material,and if they are still keen ,suggest a deposit that will cover the cost of the materials
I would not go as far as a contract ,if for some reason it goes tits up at least you will have the cost of materials covered

Title: Re: Reasonable Request
Post by WOLF on Aug 7^th, 2006, 10:05pm

I fully agree with Splinter on this one, as the way he has laid it out, is generally/roughly the way i would go, even with family (being the worse customers any way!)

unless i have done pieces for these people before and they have not quibbled over the billl, then YES 110% i would obtain a deposit to cover the basic lumber for the job in hand!

but like Splinter states, give them a few ideas of what they may be getting for the money, and also the cost options so to speak!

Title: Re: Reasonable Request
Post by woodsmith on Aug 8^th, 2006, 8:24am

"Casually requested" :-/ that sounds a bit wooley for you to go out and spend a lot of money on materials.

Good advice from Splinter and Wolf but this is a bit of a chicken and egg situation, you can't really ask for a deposit until you have worked out the exact price, but until you have sourced the timber it may be impossible to price correctly.

Title: Re: Reasonable Request
Post by big_all on Aug 8^th, 2006, 9:53am

ok my thrupenceworth

i would draw the plans work out the cutting list approx at this stage
work out the material then add 20% youll probably waste between 5 and 10% so thats 10% in your pocket and gives you some room to manover add5% for small consumables and wear and tear[nails glue dowels bisuits screws ect]
add the cost of furniture [knobs hinges runners ect]plus your markup not trade prices

then give them the "total "cost for them in mdf,pine,maple ,oak ect
give them 3 choices for comparason

now if there jaws dont fall through the floor tell them youll need halve the total cost up front as the wood is a special order

leave them with a copy of the plans with only the cost of each option your name and phone number take there name and phone number
and tell them you will contact them in a week or two to finalise the details

this way you have a chance to get the job at lower spec and you can find out how keen they are and gives them a gratious exit if its more than the £120 they where expecting to pay as thats what the "directors oak effect desk "cost in the argos catalouge ::) ::) ::) :o

i know its a lot of work planning probaly for nowt but less room for "misunderstanding"

and youll have detailed plans to put in your porfolio to show around for prospective customers ;)

Title: Re: Reasonable Request
Post by JerryD on Aug 8^th, 2006, 4:52pm

big_all wrote on Aug 8^th, 2006, 9:53am:

gives them a gratious exit if its more than the £120 they where expecting to pay as thats what the "directors oak effect desk "cost in the argos catalouge

[smiley=rotfl.gif] [smiley=laugh.gif] [smiley=rotfl.gif]

Title: Re: Reasonable Request
Post by Scrit on Aug 8^th, 2006, 7:16pm

Firstly on bespoke pieces I feel that woodworkers are probably the only people in the world who think it's OK to charge for materials at cost. Why? You have to source the materials, often end up going to get them then you need the tools and equipment to break them down - all of this costs money as well as time - so I'd put a margin on the materials over and above wastage factors, which with walnut is more likely to run at 20 to 30% of the total. after all you are in busimness and without profit there is no business......

Secondly before starting any serious work on this project I'd go through the pencil layout, work out the sizes, etc cycle and then gently enquire about their projected budget. There's no use in working out a fantastic design in solid hardwood when their budget is £250!!! There are ways to keep within budgets and deliver the product, but that can mean utilising materials such as veneered MDF for the carcass and just using solid timber for the doors. Remember that sheet stock not only costs less, but the amount of labour to utilise it in a finished piece can be considerably lower. If you can get through this stage suggest that they make you a payment for the initial design and work the design up to a reasonable point before going into the costings aspects.

Thirdly, you mention walnut and maple. Maple is not an indiginous species and for the most part is imported. That adds significantly to its cost. It's nearest relative, introduced by the Romans, is Sycamore - a timber quite widely available and with many similarities in both it's appearance and working to maple. If cost becomes an issue it is an idea to have that sort of knowledge in the background.

Build a detailed costing spreadsheet - right down to the last 5 minutes of labour and the last packet if screws. First time you dop one of these it will drive you nuts. Persevere! Once you've built one that works it becomes a template for future work. The biggest problem is in trying to come up with an hourly charge rate. Remember that for someone making a living from it that whilst they may realistically want to earn, say £9/hour pre-tax, in reality paying for your equipment (wear and tear, depreciation), rent, rates, insurance, phone, etc - not to mention pension and employers contributions (NI) - will bump that figure up to somewhere between 2 and 3 times the figure you pay yourself. And we don't all work 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year - so holidays have to go into the equation as well times when there is no work around - your landlotd won't stop collecting the rent just because you're not earning. Why do you think that even small garages charge £30+/hour these days? You also need to work out a profit margin on the whole. If you aren't making a profit from the job over and above your labour costs then where is the money going to come from to buy new tools, equipment, etc.

Lastly, you need to work out a payment schedule and stick to it like the proverbial. I'd suggest 1/3 of the total end price at least before you start - that will cover the materials, the 1/3 on the day you actually start, and then the balance on completion and delivery less say 5% withholding against defects, the final balance to be cleared 30 days after completion. If your raw materials come to more than 1/3 of the total increase the initial deposit, but if that is the case then I'd look seriously at your ciostings because something is probably wrong. I was taught that this "Rule of Thirds" works well for many manual crafts as a costing indicator - 1/3 materials, 1/3 labour and 1/3 profit.

Keep your customer up to date with progress - a digital camera and emails will suffice and it gives them an album of the origins of the piece which they may feel enhances the value of the piece.

As far as I'm concerned there are few friends in business - and a friend who wants me to do a job on the cheap is in reality taking the bread out of my family's mouths - a harsh fact but nontheless a true one

Hope I haven't put you off. Good luck!

Scrit

Title: Re: Reasonable Request
Post by Sandy on Aug 8^th, 2006, 8:42pm

Nice one, thanks to you all. There's some really sound advice in all that. I'll take some of the advice on board and see how it goes.