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https://www.askthetrades.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl DIY Forum >> Carpentry Questions >> Milling an Oak Tree - advice! https://www.askthetrades.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1155110690 Message started by bik038 on Aug 9^th, 2006, 9:04am

Title: Milling an Oak Tree - advice!
Post by bik038 on Aug 9^th, 2006, 9:04am

Morning all!

I've had an oak tree felled from my back garden - it was causing distruption in the foundations and was far too big considering how close it was to the house. I have the trunk cut in to 2 x 2.5m lengths, as well as a smaller portion of trunk and various branches from about 10" diameter up to about 18". The main trunk is about 3 foot in diameter.

What I'd like to do with the wood is have it milled into 6"x1" planks to use for oak decking in the garden. I know this is a bit extravagent and probably loads of you will tell me I should be building furniture out of it, but the reality is that there will be a lot of timber, I have limited storage to season the oak and there's only so much of it I'll be able to use! Also, I do feel guilty about having the tree cut down, so I think it will be good to have something in the garden made from the tree to make it 'live on'. I will want to use some of the wood to build furniture with too.

My questions are:

Have any of you done something similar with a tree?

What dimensions should I request from the tree - obviously I want a fair few 6"x1" planks, but I'll also want some thicker pieces to do other things with - is the best principle to get pieces as wide as you can at the thickness you want then just rip it to size once it's seasoned and you need to use it?

What's the best way to season the wood (it will be in my garden!)?

Is there a simple was to sell any of the Oak that I won't need - i guess ebay is a possibility, but not sure if anyone knows of any websites or contacts where people may want to buy green oak? (I live in Potters Bar, Herts).

Any tips / advice from anyone?

Thanks!

Gary

Title: Re: Milling an Oak Tree - advice!
Post by WOLF on Aug 9^th, 2006, 10:35am

Quote:

and probably loads of you will tell me I should be building furniture out of it,

YOU SHOULD BE MAKING FURNITURE .NOT DECKING!!!!! [smiley=lolk.gif]

will have to have a ponder on the q's though!!

Title: Re: Milling an Oak Tree - advice!
Post by splinter on Aug 9^th, 2006, 10:38am

Ain't live a bitch ,I know a man who would of sold his granny for you're tree that is before you cut it in half ;D

Title: Re: Milling an Oak Tree - advice!
Post by big_all on Aug 9^th, 2006, 10:51am

if you havent got time to season the oak its going to do a lot of moving

if it aint concreted in it could be interesting :o :o :o

ask your local "woodyard/sawmill" how much its worth or how much it will cost to convertand take it from there ;)

Title: Re: Milling an Oak Tree - advice!
Post by bik038 on Aug 9^th, 2006, 10:53am

Like I said before, I KNOW I should be making furniture not decking, but...

1 - there's just TOO MUCH wood for me to use!
2 - I want something in the garden that represents the tree, and Oak decking would look stunning...
3 - it'll take too long to season all the wood to make furniture out of.

Splinter - I think the going rate for Granny's is about £100 (just ask Wayne Rooney) - I was hoping for a bit more than that for my lovely Oak tree!!

Title: Re: Milling an Oak Tree - advice!
Post by bik038 on Aug 9^th, 2006, 11:00am

big_all wrote on Aug 9^th, 2006, 10:51am:

I have actually spoken to a guy with a mobile saw mill - he'll be coming on 2 Sept to mill the tree for me. I spoke to all the local saw mills round here and nobody was interested!!

Also, to clarify, I will be seasoning the oak outside for about 9 months or so before I use the decking - I'm hoping that will be enough to stabilise it enough for decking? If not, I guess I'll just have to wait a bit longer...

Title: Re: Milling an Oak Tree - advice!
Post by splinter on Aug 9^th, 2006, 11:15am

I personally like the idea of converting the tree into decking .I would cut the boards down to 3x1 for the decking boards ,this might make them more stable than 6x1 and you say you have some branches /off cuts ,well these wood be ideal for you're garden furniture.
I say go for it because it is not a thing most of us would normally be able to afford and if done right ,which I exspect it will be you will have created a fitting tribute to you're once mighty oak.Oh and the poshest decking in you're area ;D

Title: Re: Milling an Oak Tree - advice!
Post by Scrit on Aug 9^th, 2006, 3:26pm

big_all wrote on Aug 9^th, 2006, 10:51am:

Ask your local "woodyard/sawmill" how much its worth or how much it will cost to convertand take it from there ;)

But be prepared to get knocked back. Most sawyers are leery of hedgerow timber as it can contain all sorts of rubbish, from bits of barbed wire to shrapnel, all of them potentially damaging to their resaw blades. There will also be the not insubstantial problem of getting it out of it's existing place and onto a not insubstantial lorry - a bole of green oak can easily weigh 8 or more tonnes depending on its diameter. Your best bet will probably be to find a mobile sawmilling service (use the web to find one) as they will mill in situ and you won't get hit with the 2-way transport costs, either. Oops! Just read a newer post and you're on the case........

I think that 9 months for 1 in stock is cuttting it a bit fine. Stickered oak needs to be covered with something like corrugated iron so the wind can blow through but it's otherwise kept dry and will take 1 to 1-1/2 years per inch thickness to reach equilibrium. So expect it to move for a while (mainly joints shrinking). It might be a good idea to learn how to peg the joints - what they traditionally did with green oak. That or use stainless steel fixings as the tannin and moisture in the oak will corrode ordinary and even BZP screws in next to no time.

If you want to make any money out of it, cut your planking from the outside and leave the centre as a bog swuare beam - I believe that Wolfie wants one! ;D Seriously, though, most joinery and firniter firms won't touch timber from an unknown source - you simply don't know how well it's been dried/kilned and if it's ungraded it can be difficult to tell what you are getting.

Scrit

Title: Re: Milling an Oak Tree - advice!
Post by bik038 on Aug 9^th, 2006, 3:40pm

Scrit - thanks for the advice...

Do you think 1 - 1.5 years is suitable for wood to be used externally (per inch). I was working on the basis that it would be 1-1.5 years for wood used for furniture inside - but hey, what do I know...! If external timber will still take 1.5 years to season properly then the wife won't get her decking until the beginning on 2008 (not sure she'll be prepared to wait that long...!). :-/

I suspected that it would be difficult to sell because of the issue of it just being from my back garden rather than a reputable supplier, which takes me back to my original point that I need to do something with it that will use most of it up - ie decking!!

Cheers

Gary

Title: Re: Milling an Oak Tree - advice!
Post by Scrit on Aug 9^th, 2006, 5:55pm

wrote on Aug 9^th, 2006, 3:40pm:

Scrit - Do you think 1 - 1.5 years is suitable for wood to be used externally (per inch). I was working on the basis that it would be 1-1.5 years for wood used for furniture inside - but hey, what do I know...! If external timber will still take 1.5 years to season properly then the wife won't get her decking until the beginning on 2008 (not sure she'll be prepared to wait that long...!). :-/

Hi Gary

That 1 to 1.5 years per inch is quoted as the time required to reach equilibrium in outside air, i.e. somewhere between 16 and 20% RH (the rot point is just above 20% relative humidity),. To get oak useable indoors it then needs to be brought inside a warmed building for a further 6 months to a year to achieve 10 to 12% (or kilned) and for centrally heated buildings it would need kilning down to 8% or so as there's no way to get it down that low naturally. Someone I know up here who does his own forestry (and incidentally he resaws his own oak) tells me that for winter fellings. i.e. after the tree has lost its leaves and the sap has dropped the lower figure is good whilst for summer fellings, when the tree has a good crown and the tree is full of sap the higher figure can apply. But the rate at which timber dries is down to a lot of factors, includiing the moisture content of the air, how windy it is and the air temperature. Sadly the only true way to know is to buy a timber moisture meter and a notebook and check every few days until you reach the level you want to be at.

Scrit

Title: Re: Milling an Oak Tree - advice!
Post by jasonB on Aug 9^th, 2006, 6:18pm

You have felled the tree at a time of year when there is a lot of sap/moisture in the wood, if it had been cut when the tree was dormant then you could reduce the drying time.

I think for 1" decking about a year will be OK, as Scrit says stack the boards with 1" sticks between layers and only cover the top, stack it in the shade not in sunlight.

While you are waiting for it to be cut, paint the ends with a couple of coats of paint, old household gloss will do to stop excess moisture loss from the endgrain.

If you want to get another quote for a mobile mill, try Scott timber who I get my green oak from or there are a number of mobile mills in the South East listed here , I've also used Charlie at Treespanner in the past

For any thicker boards get them cut straight through the tree to give you wide slabs, these can be cut up into usable widths once dry.

Jason

Title: Re: Milling an Oak Tree - advice!
Post by londonman on Aug 9^th, 2006, 6:50pm

...and make sure that your sticks are as above each other in a vertical line. Don't be tempted to put intermediate sticks on some levels to support a shorter board without ensuring that there are sticks all the way down to the ground beneath them. You might think that the weight of wood above these intermediate sticks won't affect lower layers and make them sag. They will. DAMHIKT

Title: Re: Milling an Oak Tree - advice!
Post by woodsmith on Aug 11^th, 2006, 7:59am

I'd have it cut through and through, in 30mm thick boards. These will be easier to dry, and stick, and are much more likely to remain straight.

If you have it milled into 6x1 planks then try to air dry it, you will almost certainly end up with a load of firewood.

Title: Re: Milling an Oak Tree - advice!
Post by jasonB on Aug 11^th, 2006, 11:08am

Great minds think alike, I just picked up some Larch decking that I had milled at 32mm thick ;) smells lovely

Jason

Title: Re: Milling an Oak Tree - advice!
Post by woodsmith on Aug 11^th, 2006, 6:07pm

I get some of my timber from a local farmer and he has had it all cut at about 30mm and it seem to work.

Know what you mean about larch, I did a queen post trussed roof in larch, smelled lovely while it was stacked in the workshop

Title: Re: Milling an Oak Tree - advice!
Post by bik038 on Aug 14^th, 2006, 10:33am

woodsmith wrote on Aug 11^th, 2006, 7:59am:

I'm very confused now!

Based on things I've been told and looking on various websites I thought quarter sawn timber was the most stable. I'm also struggling to see how 25mm vs 30mm will make a massive difference to the stability of the wood? I probably will go with about 3" wide for the decking to help with stability, but are you saying that you believe quarter sawn won't be as stable?!

Obviously the last thing I want is to pay the miller about £700 to provide me with some wonky firewood!!

Thanks again,

Gary

Title: Re: Milling an Oak Tree - advice!
Post by woodsmith on Aug 14^th, 2006, 11:45am

Quarter sawn timber is more stable if the wood (tree) is straight grained, if this has grown in your garden it is unlikely to be so straight.

If the timber is professionally kiln dried and the wood is straight then quarter sawing it would be an option but if you are going to stick it in your garden and cover it with a tarp IMHO you would be better off sawing it through and through.

The extra thickness is because if you do want to clean the wood up after it has dried a 30mm board will give you a finished 25mm (approx). If you start with 25mm the wood will move more so to clean it up you may get down to 16-18mm which would probably not be much use to you.

Title: Re: Milling an Oak Tree - advice!
Post by jasonB on Aug 14^th, 2006, 12:33pm

Its all to do with the way wood moves. Quatered boards will move less over their width than tangentally sawn timber, this is because the wood shrinks less radially to the center of the trunk than it does when at rightangles.

Having the trunk sawn through & through will give you crown cut boards at the top & bottom and quatered ones near the center. If you ask the sawyer to cut all the trunk for quatered timber there will be a lot of waste and it takes a lot longer so the cost will go up.

Jason

Title: Re: Milling an Oak Tree - advice!
Post by bik038 on Aug 15^th, 2006, 1:19pm

wrote on Aug 14^th, 2006, 12:33pm:

Thanks for that.

I'm still confused...!!

I can have the timber quarter sawn - benefit being that it will be more stable and I will have more chance of being able to use the timber. Down side is that there's more waste (not really a big concern for me) and that it will take longer to mill - hence cost more.

If I have the timber cut through and through then about a quarter of the timber will be 'quarter sawn' with the rest being crown cut. The upside of this is that there's less waste and it's cheaper to mill. The downside is that the crown cut timber is more likely to warp and be less stable, so it may end up being firewood.

To me the additional cost of milling isn't a major concern - my main priority is getting wood as stable as possible from the tree, especially given the fact that it will be drying in my garden rather than in a timber yard / kiln dried.

From the research I've done and knowledge I have (albeit limited!) I thought that quarter sawn would be the best option for me on this basis for the two main sections of the tree trunk. The rest I will have sawn through and through, but I thought that the trunks would get the most stable wood through quarter sawing.

The last few posts have confused me a bit and now I'm not sure what I'm best to do if:
- i am not concerned about increased waste
- i am not concerned about higher milling costs
- i want boards to be as stable as possible for decking - 30mm x 90mm.

Maybe it's just that there isn't one answer?!

Title: Re: Milling an Oak Tree - advice!
Post by jasonB on Aug 15^th, 2006, 4:28pm

Best compromise would be:

Have as much timber as you will need for the decking (plus 25% wastage)quater sawn into 30mm boards but leave the ripping to width until they have dried.

Have the remaining timber cut through and through into an assortment of widths 30, 50 & 70mm say and keep this for other projects.

Jason

Title: Re: Milling an Oak Tree - advice!
Post by bik038 on Aug 16^th, 2006, 9:54am

wrote on Aug 15^th, 2006, 4:28pm:

Best compromise would be:

Have as much timber as you will need for the decking (plus 25% wastage)quater sawn into 30mm boards but leave the ripping to width until they have dried.

Jason

Sorry to be a pain (again!) but earlier on in this thread someone said I shouldn't use 6" wide decking because it would warp and twist more.

Does that mean that the width of the timber when it is in stick makes NO DIFFERENCE to the quality of the final timber? If that's the case then I agree it makes sense to rip it once it's fully seasoned, but my concern is that 3" wide boards will season better than, say 7" wide boards?

Title: Re: Milling an Oak Tree - advice!
Post by jasonB on Aug 16^th, 2006, 6:33pm

As the timber will move by the same amount per inch a 6" board will move twice as much as a 3" board so the advice was right though I would probably go for 4" wide boards as 3" may look a bit on the thin side.

When it comes to air drying you may actually find that 3" wide boards just dry too fast causing splits. Also you only need the 3" board to bow by 1/2" and you will then end up with a 2" board by the time it has been straightened out on a planner. Properly sticked a wide board will not cup excessively particularly if quater sawn.

Also if you buy hardwoods you seldom find they are available as narrow boards, 6" and wider is usual.

What you want to avoid is shown in the first two pics in this album ;D

Jason

Title: Re: Milling an Oak Tree - advice!
Post by splinter on Aug 16^th, 2006, 10:42pm

I've had a look in my olde carpentry book and for oak it reccomends firstly quartering the log ,from there the diagram then gets to complicated for me to explain ,it also shows a log halved then run through into boards .I suppose this process could be carried out on a quartered log.Which I think will be better for you ,as you don't want all your log coverted in to boards ,so you could convert 1 or 2 quarters into different stock sizes .
the reason for quartering a oak log is that oak relies on the medullary rays for its beauty.You wouldn't get this effect in the grain if you just ran a log through &through tangentially

Title: Re: Milling an Oak Tree - advice!
Post by Scrit on Aug 17^th, 2006, 5:10pm

In reality true quarter sawing is incredibly wasteful, so most sawmen deem to opt for what I believe is called "false" quarter sawn where a log is quartered then alternate faces sawn away - less waste, lers scrap material to dispose of, less set-up time, too.

Dcrit

Title: Re: Milling an Oak Tree - advice!
Post by bik038 on Sep 14^th, 2006, 4:38pm

Just to let you know (for anyone that's interested!) the Oak tree was milled a couple of weekends ago. The 2 main 'trunk' sections were cut into quarters (using a mechanism with chain saw) and then sawn on the mobile bandsaw.

I have got over 70 3m lengths of 6.5" x 1.25" planks to use for decking (hopefully I will end up being able to get about 5" x 1" from this), 4 x 2.25" x 13" slabs, some 2.25"x2.25" and some 3.25"x3.25".

I've very happy with what I've got and I'm just praying now that the seasoning process isn't too cruel to me!! It's nicely covered in my garden and I just need to patiently wait for about a year and a half (easier said than done!) to see what the wood is like.

Title: Re: Milling an Oak Tree - advice!
Post by Scrit on Sep 15^th, 2006, 11:55pm

Actually the 2-1/4 in will take 2-1/2 to 3 years and the 3-/14 in is possibly a 4 to 5 years wait....

Happy waiting..... It'l;l be worth it in the end

Scrit