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https://www.askthetrades.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl DIY Forum >> Electrical Questions >> HELP HELP HELP Damsel in distress https://www.askthetrades.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1233511012 Message started by shell on Feb 1^st, 2009, 5:56pm

Title: HELP HELP HELP Damsel in distress
Post by shell on Feb 1^st, 2009, 5:56pm

hi. right my hubby as been trying to fit new lights in the loft. he has taken the live from the landing light because he is unable to find a live in the loft. The muppet put the floor down first lol lol .. He is fitting a two way switch, one at bottom of the loft stairs and one at top. he is able to get power to the light and switch it off and on but when you switch the landing light off the loft lights also goes out!!!!! please help me to help him cos he is doin my head in PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE? x he keeps asking me to come upstairs every two minutes, ( I wish!!!) to turn the power on off!!! THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR TWO DAYS .......

Title: Re: HELP HELP HELP Damsel in distress
Post by Zambezi on Feb 1^st, 2009, 6:00pm

He has connected into the switched live rather than the permanent live. He needs to find the permanent live. Good luck

Title: Re: HELP HELP HELP Damsel in distress
Post by Zambezi on Feb 1^st, 2009, 6:09pm

If you take a picture of the light fitting that he has connected into then we may be able to help. If he has put the floor down already, hopefully it can be done from the light fitting below but need more detail.

Title: Re: HELP HELP HELP Damsel in distress
Post by Lectrician on Feb 1^st, 2009, 6:18pm

How many cables are in the landing light?

If you have a modern-ish home, chances are he can just alter the connections in the landing light. If your home is a little older, the landing light most likely only has a switched live available, hence the problem you have.

I am sure there is a permenent live available in the loft or from another rooms light fitting, or some other location.

Any chance of some pics? See the bottom of my post for info on how to do this!

Title: Re: HELP HELP HELP Damsel in distress
Post by shell on Feb 1^st, 2009, 6:20pm

OK. Thankyou. I will see if that makes a difference. I will take a pic and see if that helps you any futher.

Title: Re: HELP HELP HELP Damsel in distress
Post by Lectrician on Feb 1^st, 2009, 6:41pm

Photo sent to me by "shell".....

Title: Re: HELP HELP HELP Damsel in distress
Post by Lectrician on Feb 1^st, 2009, 6:45pm

It looks a bit of a mess.

This light has no permenent live available, the supply to your loft lights should therefor have been sourced elsewhere where a permenent live was available.

Can you take some pics of the inside of other upstairs lights, and we can then tell you which to use.

Rather than send the photos to me, just post them here yourself. I am not going to be online all the time ;)

Others can then still read your posts and this thread and help and advise (thats the great thing about a forum) ;D.

I am guessing the disconnected blue is from the new cable your hubby installed?

Title: Re: HELP HELP HELP Damsel in distress
Post by LSpark on Feb 1^st, 2009, 6:55pm

That's not a mess lecc, it's a bodge ::)

With respect, why not tell hubby to call an electrician in, £30 quid, job done, light works, no one gets killed!

Title: Re: HELP HELP HELP Damsel in distress
Post by Zambezi on Feb 1^st, 2009, 7:05pm

Yip, it looks like there is no permanent live there so you will have to find one elsewhere as Lectrician said.
Can you still get single core and earth?

Title: Re: HELP HELP HELP Damsel in distress
Post by Lectrician on Feb 1^st, 2009, 7:15pm

Two more pics sent to me.

Title: Re: HELP HELP HELP Damsel in distress
Post by LSpark on Feb 1^st, 2009, 7:18pm

Oh dear god, the wiring get's worse. Is that a live with earth sleeving covering it?.. I guess it's impossible to know for sure without testing it. Looks like it though.

Title: Re: HELP HELP HELP Damsel in distress
Post by Lectrician on Feb 1^st, 2009, 7:18pm

Neither of those lights look like a good bet either. It looks like the circuit has been wired in DI singles, which means you are not going to find a neutral and a perm-live at the same accessory. You need a perm live from a switch and a neutral from a light fitting.

Title: Re: HELP HELP HELP Damsel in distress
Post by LSpark on Feb 1^st, 2009, 7:20pm

They look like DI singles, but how often do you find them?.. not very, and if you look at the other cables in the earlier picture they are clearly snipped T+E's.

Title: Re: HELP HELP HELP Damsel in distress
Post by shell on Feb 1^st, 2009, 7:25pm

LSpark wrote on Feb 1^st, 2009, 7:20pm:

They look like DI singles, but how often do you find them?.. not very, and if you look at the other cables in the earlier picture they are clearly snipped T+E's.

What is i a DI single, can i take a live from a plug socket ? ? :-/

Title: Re: HELP HELP HELP Damsel in distress
Post by Lectrician on Feb 1^st, 2009, 7:28pm

LSpark wrote on Feb 1^st, 2009, 7:20pm:

They look like DI singles, but how often do you find them?.. not very, and if you look at the other cables in the earlier picture they are clearly snipped T+E's.

I think they are actually DI singles and a single and earth.

Title: Re: HELP HELP HELP Damsel in distress
Post by LSpark on Feb 1^st, 2009, 7:30pm

I'm inclined to agree now on closer inspection.

Shell - Perhaps it would be best to leave the fixed wiring alone and buy one of those clip on lights with a plug on the end to plug in downstairs and take up with you when you go into the loft.

Title: Re: HELP HELP HELP Damsel in distress
Post by Lectrician on Feb 1^st, 2009, 7:31pm

wrote on Feb 1^st, 2009, 7:25pm:

LSpark wrote on Feb 1^st, 2009, 7:20pm:

They look like DI singles, but how often do you find them?.. not very, and if you look at the other cables in the earlier picture they are clearly snipped T+E's.

What is i a DI single, can i take a live from a plug socket ? ? :-/

Taken a feed from a socket is likely your easiest option - as long as you use a FUSED CONNECTION UNIT such as below. This will fuse your 30 amp (typical) socket circuit down to 3 or 5amp suitable for a lighting circuit.

http://www.screwfix.com/prods/29775/Electrical-Supplies/Switches-Sockets/White-Moulded/MK-Range/MK-13A-DP-FCU

Title: Re: HELP HELP HELP Damsel in distress
Post by shell on Feb 1^st, 2009, 7:37pm

Thats great lectrician, hes already got plug sockets installed in the loft, does he just link one of them to the new fused connection unit ? Lspark no can do as this is a bedroom.

Title: Re: HELP HELP HELP Damsel in distress
Post by Zambezi on Feb 1^st, 2009, 7:52pm

I am not comfortable with advising any further with this one because there are too many things that don't stack up:
- If it is a loft that has been converted "legally" through building control etc then you would expect it to have lights and power etc,
- The existing electrics don't look particularly safe, no jbs etc,
- If the sockets in the loft have been fitted by your hubby then I wonder if he has broken into a ring properly, is it a radial, has it been spurred off,
- None of it has been tested,
- Part P?

I would follow LSpark's advice and get an electrician in. Although saying that he will probably not want to touch it if it is a DIY loft conversion...

Title: Re: HELP HELP HELP Damsel in distress
Post by shell on Feb 1^st, 2009, 8:02pm

Ok i understand, hes put a spur out of an existing socket he is fairly confident with electrics but this one has stumped him.He wasnt sure if it was safe to put lights in through a socket but he said that what lectrician said made sense. Thanks for your help.

Title: Re: HELP HELP HELP Damsel in distress
Post by Zambezi on Feb 1^st, 2009, 8:07pm

When you say he put a spur off and existing socket, did he:
a.) connect the new cable for the sockets to the back of an existing socket?
b.) connect a new fused outlet (similar to the one in an earlier thread by Lectrician) to the existing socket and then connect the new sockets to the fused outlet?

Title: Re: HELP HELP HELP Damsel in distress
Post by shell on Feb 1^st, 2009, 8:12pm

He did option one, are you suggesting he does option two ? That way he will be able to connect live for lights as suggested by lectrician ?

Title: Re: HELP HELP HELP Damsel in distress
Post by Goodsparks on Feb 1^st, 2009, 8:13pm

You're still going to need to break into the existing lighting circuit (or provide an independent circuit) to supply the interconnecting smoke detectors that are required in ADB for a converted loft / habitable room. Given the state of the wiring in the pictures this will probably prove to be a useful addition rather than something installed just to comply with the building regs.

Given that the install will be to the 17th edition of BS 7671, i'm not sure that a fused connection unit off of the circuit supplying the socket outlets would be acceptable. If the RCD protecting the circuit were to operate, you would plunge the loft (and presumably the stairs) into darkness.

Quote:

he is fairly confident with electrics

:-X

Paul

Title: Re: HELP HELP HELP Damsel in distress
Post by Zambezi on Feb 1^st, 2009, 8:16pm

That is what I was worried about! It should be option b.) with a 13 amp fuse in it.
The lights need to come off their own fused connection unit with a 3 or 5 amp fuse in it (they normally come with a 13 amp fuse fitted to them).
Good point Paul, I bet there is no RCD anywhere in the install though judging by the wiring to the lights.

Title: Re: HELP HELP HELP Damsel in distress
Post by shell on Feb 1^st, 2009, 8:19pm

Thats great thankyou very much. How much do you think that would cost an electrician to do that job ??

Title: Re: HELP HELP HELP Damsel in distress
Post by LSpark on Feb 1^st, 2009, 8:27pm

wrote on Feb 1^st, 2009, 8:02pm:

he is fairly confident with electrics but this one has stumped him

That is because confident is not the same as competent. I might be confident to fit a boiler, but it doesn't make me competent, I certainly couldn't test flow rates, gas pressures, and god knows what else.

I don't have a problem with people undertaking work themselves, but it should be within the law, and be under instruction or advice by someone in the know. And there is no excuse now since you have online forums such as this where you can come and get advice before carrying out such tasks.

Title: Re: HELP HELP HELP Damsel in distress
Post by shell on Feb 1^st, 2009, 8:33pm

Good point and fully agree. Money is very tight and would like to do it ourselves which is why all the question to see if it can be done by hubby. But out of interest , all points considered how much would this cost a proffesional ? :-/

Title: Re: HELP HELP HELP Damsel in distress
Post by Zambezi on Feb 1^st, 2009, 8:51pm

Can't tell how much it would cost without looking at it. Chances are that there will need to be other works done to the circuit/s being altered to meet the current regulations.

Title: Re: HELP HELP HELP Damsel in distress
Post by sparky415 on Feb 2^nd, 2009, 11:58am

Shell,

I agree with the other Sparks on here,

You need an Electrician to have a look

Just because a light or socket works doesn’t mean that it is wired safely

Can any friends or neighbours recommend an Electrician?

Zambezi, I got a roll of DI 1.5 red two years ago (Eddies)

Title: Re: HELP HELP HELP Damsel in distress
Post by shell on Feb 2^nd, 2009, 7:04pm

Evening guys, we have decided after all your advice , even the sarcastic comments lol to take extension leads up there, your comments on our interestig wiring made me and after much debate wiv my hubby that we would all prefer to live ! ! So thankyou all very much on help in this matter

Shell.