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https://www.askthetrades.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl DIY Forum >> Electrical Questions >> Government's Consumer White Paper https://www.askthetrades.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1247298777 Message started by ChubbyPhaseWire on Jul 11^th, 2009, 8:52am

Title: Government's Consumer White Paper
Post by ChubbyPhaseWire on Jul 11^th, 2009, 8:52am

The Consumer White Paper recently published by Government.
In particular, its commitment to work with enforcement authorities, business and scheme operators to help raise awareness of schemes designed to safeguard the consumer.

Take a look ;)
http://www.berr.gov.uk/files/file52072.pdf

Title: Re: Government's Consumer White Paper
Post by LS on Jul 13^th, 2009, 9:45pm

And none of these schemes have any direct relation to electrical installation work. wow!

Only two references to electrical in the whole 100+ page document, energy saving light bulbs and dodge consumer electrical goods that don't meet safety standards!

Title: Re: Government's Consumer White Paper
Post by ChubbyPhaseWire on Jul 16^th, 2009, 11:58pm

LSpark wrote on Jul 13^th, 2009, 9:45pm:

Are you sure ? ;)

Title: Re: Government's Consumer White Paper
Post by The_Trician on Jul 18^th, 2009, 12:34am

Govt version -

"The Government held a Home Improvement Summit on 8 June 2009 to explore possible solutions to the issues facing those considering having work done in their home.

The objectives were to identify ways in which consumer awareness of problems in the sector can be improved, to improve awareness of recognised “Good Trader” schemes and to raise the profile of these schemes among business to encourage wider participation."

Remove the 'spin' and we get -

The Government held a Home Improvement Summit on 8 June 2009 to explore possible solutions to the issues facing those considering having work done in their home.

The objectives were to identify ways in which ......

...more revenue (taxes) can be raised from the unsuspecting Public in order to keep the now-legions of the otherwise unemployable non-jobs in meaningless work.

Sounds about right.

"I'm from the Government and I'm here to help....."

Gawd 'elp us.

TT

Title: Re: Government's Consumer White Paper
Post by ChubbyPhaseWire on Jul 18^th, 2009, 4:40pm

;)

Title: Re: Government's Consumer White Paper
Post by The_Trician on Jul 18^th, 2009, 5:38pm

I've heard ducks fart before.

This is just another last-gasp initiative from a dying Govt, and one which will never grow legs because it costs money - and the Public purse is well empty.

Just wait till Cameron gets in Chubbs - Part P will be GONE!!

Along with your Part P training courses!!!

Time for a long overdue BIG RED TAPE BONFIRE!

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Government's Consumer White Paper
Post by TibbarTibbar on Jul 18^th, 2009, 7:41pm

Agree 100% TT and I think that Prescott should pay for the costs, out of his OWN pocket, of a so-called law that was SO badly thought out that an ape (sorry apes) could have done better. Part P is dead in the water without a doubt as it stands, nice idea shame about the implementation.

Title: Re: Government's Consumer White Paper
Post by dingbat on Jul 19^th, 2009, 8:55am

Hilarious! I had no idea they were still performing: http://www.thechucklebrothersontour.co.uk/

[smiley=rotfl.gif] [smiley=rotfl.gif] [smiley=rotfl.gif] [smiley=rotfl.gif] [smiley=rotfl.gif] [smiley=rotfl.gif]

Title: Re: Government's Consumer White Paper
Post by wozzy on Jul 19^th, 2009, 10:49am

i have been thinking about this for a while and would like to know what you lads think:

As tibbar tibbar says he and many others do not believe Part P is working, due to implementation.

Is it just because of implementation? Did Part P go far enough? Did Part P go too far?

Just want to see what people think and how it should have been done?

Title: Re: Government's Consumer White Paper
Post by The_Trician on Jul 19^th, 2009, 11:37am

Put it this way,

Whenever you hear the words 'Government' & 'Scheme' used in the same sentence, you just know it's gonna be bad.

This is particularly true for any form of Socialist-leaning Govt.

Part Pi$$ isn't working, the number of annual fatalities has actually risen since Jan 2005.

It has become so embarrassing that the Govt no longer records these numbers themselves.

The ESC (the propaganda arm of the NIC to you and me) has now undertaken this task in order to gather enough data to screw the UK electrical industry completely.

There now seems to be even more impetus to drive the industry towards becoming a 'Closed Shop'.

Paid-up Scam members-only if you please.

After all, it's in the name of enhanced safety for the consumer isn't it?
(Laughs his bollerks off)

So why, after new legislation, millions of items of test kit being bought, millions of training courses being sold, and more inspection & testing being carried out than ever before, have more lives been lost on a per annum basis since Jan 2005?

Well let's have a look shall we.

One 5 day course and you can become 'an electrician with the potential to earn upwards of £40+K per year'!

In reality, your '5 day wonder' is simply another semi-skilled dilutee but without the requisite experience to help him blunder through.

So it's like -

PCSO (Police Community Support Officer) instead of real Policeman.
HLTA (Higher Level Teaching Assistant) instead of real Teacher.

The Govt and it's quango cohorts seem hell-bent on dumbing down and screwing up every aspect of the UKs daily economic life.

I just hope that Cameron puts a stop to all this nonsense and lifts the dead hand of Govt off our backs once and for all.

TT

Title: Re: Government's Consumer White Paper
Post by dingbat on Jul 19^th, 2009, 11:40am

The_Trician wrote on Jul 19^th, 2009, 11:37am:

I just hope that Cameron puts a stop to all this nonsense and lifts the dead hand of Govt off our backs once and for all.

Dream on... ;)

Title: Re: Government's Consumer White Paper
Post by wozzy on Jul 19^th, 2009, 11:48am

thanks for the response.

There now seems to be even more impetus to drive the industry towards becoming a 'Closed Shop'.

what you mean by that?

Title: Re: Government's Consumer White Paper
Post by The_Trician on Jul 19^th, 2009, 11:58am

A 'Closed Shop' was created by the trade unions back in the dark days of the 60's & 70's.

Back then, when we had workshops and actually made 'things' to sell, instead of stupid 'concepts' and fictional financial 'instruments', the workshop was 'closed' to anyone who wasn't a member of a trade union.

You must have heard about how good we all were at going on strike back then?

Basically, unless you were a member of the union you didn't get a job.

One of the first things any prospective employer would ask at a job interview was "Are you in the union?'
Back then, the unions decided who got the job and not the employer.

Similarly, the Part P scam providers want a situation where all electrical works are only carried out by their members, thus creating a 'Closed Shop'.

Title: Re: Government's Consumer White Paper
Post by wozzy on Jul 19^th, 2009, 12:08pm

i see what you are saying.

If you are talking about improving standards and decreasing the number of deaths, how do we go about this?

Title: Re: Government's Consumer White Paper
Post by The_Trician on Jul 19^th, 2009, 12:35pm

Well to be honest, the annual number of deaths - however tragic - never did merit the likes of Part P in the first place on a cost-benefit analysis.

What it did achieve, was to enable many opportunists to start up so-called 'Training companies' which offer courses of varying quality to many of those who should have stuck to Share-dealing & Dry-stone walling instead.

Today's industry is all about 'Enabling' and 'Increasing access to education'.

Basically the whole thing is being dumbed-down to tick-box level, which then goes on to provide a path for lawyers to chase.

Meanwhile, the whole enhanced safety angle can go hang.

Feel free to come up with any workable solutions yourself!

But bear this in mind - 'Change' is not always for the better.

S'funny, but the annual fatality stats were actually lower prior to the 1st Jan 2005.

What does that tell you..........

TT

Title: Re: Government's Consumer White Paper
Post by londonman on Jul 23^rd, 2009, 10:40pm

Where did you get the fatality stats from, TT? When I enquired I found only one death attributable to faulty wiring and that was the MPs daughter which kicked the whole thing off.

RoSPA had no stats available either.

Title: Re: Government's Consumer White Paper
Post by ChubbyPhaseWire on Jul 24^th, 2009, 5:28pm

The latest National Statistics on fires, casualties and false alarms attended by the Fire and Rescue Services in the United Kingdom, produced by Communities and Local Government, were released on Friday 17 July 2009 according to the arrangements approved by the UK Statistics Authority. ;)

Title: Re: Government's Consumer White Paper
Post by londonman on Jul 24^th, 2009, 6:33pm

wrote on Jul 24^th, 2009, 5:28pm:

Your point?

Title: Re: Government's Consumer White Paper
Post by The_Trician on Jul 24^th, 2009, 6:59pm

"ps i have got a video................."

I'll bet you have..........

;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Government's Consumer White Paper
Post by The_Trician on Jul 24^th, 2009, 7:08pm

Quote:

Where did you get the fatality stats from, TT?

Try here: ">http://www.hse.gov.uk/statistics/

http://www.hse.gov.uk/statisti...ables/kind1.htm

Looking at Public documents like this one:
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si20...ksiem_20090639_en.pdf

"4. RATIONALE FOR GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION
4.1 Safety
Typically there are 3 to 4 fatalities each year in the UK (2) associated with electrical installations in buildings.
These are generally associated with householders making contact with live parts either as a result of DIY repairs or picking up severed flexible cables.
This would suggest that within electrical installations in buildings the UK is operating from a very safe base and care has to be taken to maintain this."

or this:

"Nearly 2000 fires in 1991 were caused by faulty leads to appliances"

HSE HSG107 Maintaining portable and transportable electrical equipment

Rospa:

http://www.rospa.com/factsheet...ical_accidents2007.pdf

There is no mention that the number of 'accidents' rose after the introduction of Part P to the Building Regulations, and that could have been the reason that the data suddenly stopped being available, or maybe they stopped recording them separately (can't think why?).

The last published data showed an upwards trend between 2004 and 2007 - then data stopped, or was it only 6.41% accurate and not good enough for the National Audit Office?

Then there's the good ole' propaganda from the NIC, though I wish they'd make up their minds as to the numbers -

Here's a copy of a email I received last year - the original sender never did an an answer from them :o :o

"Sirs,
With reference to figures published at certain times by yourselves -

http://www.niceic.org.uk/partp/newsitemjan052.html says: Amazingly, electricians have never been regulated despite faulty electrics causing an average of 12,500 house fires, 750 serious injuries and 10 deaths each year

But

http://www.niceic.org.uk/press/prnov044.html. says: Amazingly, electricians have never been regulated despite faulty electrics causing an average of 19 deaths and 2000 injuries every year.

And

http://www.niceic.org.uk/press/prdec043.html Says:
Amazingly, electricians have never been regulated despite faulty electrics causing an average of 2336 house fires, 750 serious injuries and 10 deaths each year.

and

http://www.niceic.org.uk/press/prspt0704.html Say:
Despite the fact that faulty electrics result in 19 deaths and over 2000 non-fatal electric shock accidents each year

and

http://www.niceic.org.uk/press/prdec03.html says:
According to government statistics, fixed electrical installations in homes in England and Wales cause around 5 fatalities and over 500 non-fatal injuries every year. And 12500 fires in homes across the country are reported as having an electrical source of ignition causing about 25 deaths and 590 non-fatal injuries each year

and

http://www.niceic.org.uk/consumers/moving.html says:
According to government figures, around 10% of domestic fires are electrical, and of these a third are directly due to old or bad wiring. This equates to over 2000 electric shock accidents and 9300 electrical fires in homes every year.

I'm sure if I looked further I'd see more. So what is it then?

5,10,19, or 30 deaths a year?

2336, 9300, or 12500 house fires?

750, 1090, or 2000 injuries

Or is it just that these people make the figures up on the spot to try to prove a point?

Government statistics did show an increase in deaths since the introduction of part P.

The biggest risk now is cost saving by householders who make do with extension leads, where once they would have had extra sockets installed or other new work carried out.

I have been involved in an after the fire report where the fire officer blamed an electrical storage heater. I found the outside of the heater severely burnt, but no damage whatsoever inside the case.

My conclusion? The heater had been IN a fire but had not been ON fire and had not been the cause.
Now as Government stats would be based on fire officer reports, how many more of these blunders went into their compilation?"

:-? :-? :-? :-? :-?

Title: Re: Government's Consumer White Paper
Post by ChubbyPhaseWire on Jul 25^th, 2009, 9:56am

londonman wrote on Jul 24^th, 2009, 6:33pm:

wrote on Jul 24^th, 2009, 5:28pm:

Your point?

Thanks
"15 - love." ;)

Title: Re: Government's Consumer White Paper
Post by londonman on Jul 25^th, 2009, 12:57pm

Well, said, TT. Plus most of the text doesn't discriminate between dozo's picking up a live lead (which Part P does nothing to address nor should it) and an installation...and eve there what would they mean by installation? Faulty wiring at a socket..maybe connecting live to the earth tag and earth to the live tag. Maybe. maybe not. Who can tell. Just another example of DuffGov's incompetence

Title: Re: Government's Consumer White Paper
Post by The_Trician on Jul 25^th, 2009, 7:00pm

Quote:

......produced by Communities and Local Government, were released on Friday 17 July 2009 according to the arrangements approved by the UK Statistics Authority.

The emboldend bit should tell you all you need to know...........

Now, how many trust this Govt to come up with any meaningful and reliable statistic?

Knife crime?
Unemployment?
Et al.

TT

Title: Re: Government's Consumer White Paper
Post by Brunokid on Jul 25^th, 2009, 11:36pm

Thanks
"15 - love." ;)
[/quote]

Brevity is the soul of wit

Title: Re: Government's Consumer White Paper
Post by ChubbyPhaseWire on Jul 26^th, 2009, 12:07am

Bru
you old chatterbox you ;)

Title: Re: Government's Consumer White Paper
Post by The_Trician on Jul 26^th, 2009, 12:38am

Brunobum wrote:

Quote:

'Thanks "15 - love. Bruno"

How sweet.

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

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