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https://www.askthetrades.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl DIY Forum >> Plumbing Questions >> Scale filter???? https://www.askthetrades.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1299514873 Message started by charadam on Mar 7^th, 2011, 4:21pm

Title: Scale filter????
Post by charadam on Mar 7^th, 2011, 4:21pm

British Gas have just advised my daughter that her condensing combi-boiler is knackered as it is scaled up.
The tech told her that a "water scale filter" should have been installed at the same time as the boiler.
What did he mean?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Title: Re: Scale filter????
Post by Wayne B on Mar 7^th, 2011, 4:44pm

I take it she lives in an area where the kettle lasts about 3 months bud.
That item is supposed to remove a large amount of the contamination from the water that forms the limescale Calcium,magnesium e.t.c and other deposits that eventualy furr up the workings.

Title: Re: Scale filter????
Post by thescruff on Mar 8^th, 2011, 3:56am

wrote on Mar 7^th, 2011, 4:21pm:

more info pease

What are they quoting for including labour to fit one, it's a very simple DIY job and you can get them on ebay for around 80 quid,

What is the problem and make/model of the boiler.

Title: Re: Scale filter????
Post by Wayne B on Mar 8^th, 2011, 6:42am

How old is this boiler and the make and G.C number please?
What have British Gas said they want to do about it.(E.G repair boiler and fit filter)?
How much are they wanting to charge?

Title: Re: Scale filter????
Post by CWatters on Mar 8^th, 2011, 9:29am

Find out what exactly they recommend fitting.

Very Hard water is supersaturated with minerals (eg it contains minerals both dissolved in the water and in suspension). When it's heated in the boiler the minerals precipitate out to form scale. You can filter out the minerals in suspension but it's not possible to simply filter out something that's dissolved in the water. So a simple mechanical filter is only a partial solution.

Salt based water softners/ion exchange resin block based water filters go further and deal with the disolved dissolved minerals...but obviously they rely on you replacing the active chemicals (eg the salt, or resin filter) or they stop working.

http://chemistry.about.com/cs/howthingswork/a/aa082403a.htm

Some can also reduce the water pressure if not sized correctly.

There are lots of magnetic and electronic devices on the market that also claim to convert the disolved minerals to a form that doesn't produce scale. Unfortunately there is no widely accepted scientific explanation for how these might work and very few independant field trials. If I remember correctly a Bath University study got some positive results and a study for the US Military got negative results. The manufactures use a lot of scientific words to convince you they operate on scientific principles but a lot of it is just nonsense speak.

http://www.chem1.com/CQ/magscams.html

Title: Re: Scale filter????
Post by Wayne B on Mar 8^th, 2011, 11:30am

This sounds more like the hot water heat exchanger getting choked up in a hard water area.Do Mr Watters and Scruff agree?
Bit ovekill to be saying the boiler is nackerd though if that is the case.

Title: Re: Scale filter????
Post by thescruff on Mar 8^th, 2011, 2:54pm

I wouldn't trust a single word British Gas say, that's not to say it isn't scaled or sludged up.

We all know British Cash have done a deal with a certain "Hydroflow 38" anti scale gadget, and we also know their sales sharks are going to push them at every opportunity, whether you need one or not.

Having said all that I like the Hydroflow 38, and the biggest concern with the Intergas combination boiler I have just installed at home was indeed scale in the secondary pipework, so I have one being trialed. ;D

The only problem is, I will only know whether they work or not, if it doesn't scale up over the next 4-5 years, however you can be sure the world and his wife will know about it, if it doesn't work, assuming I'm still alive and kicking. ;D

Incidentally they can be purchased on eBay for around £80, against BG £200.00 ::) just clip it on the cold feed to the boiler and plug it in, Wow !!!

Title: Re: Scale filter????
Post by Wayne B on Mar 8^th, 2011, 3:17pm

I must admit B.G are not my fave either.
I have no idea where they get some of theyre prices from or why anyone would pay what they charge.
But its getting out of hand now with people being told utter rubbish and sold all sorts of crap that doesnt work.
1 0f my pet hates is the powerflush

Title: Re: Scale filter????
Post by CWatters on Mar 8^th, 2011, 7:49pm

I had a look at the Hydroflow 38 info. Wondered about this section..

http://www.ecmi.us/infowindows/loops.asp

Quote:

Watch out for Loops! An electrical loop is formed when a low impedance electrical path exists between the upstream side of the Hydropath unit, and the downstream side. A Hydropath unit can not function properly in a loop.

If you install the unit on a copper pipe how do you check for a hidden "loop"? I think you would have to cut the pipe temporarily :-)

Title: Re: Scale filter????
Post by Wayne B on Mar 8^th, 2011, 8:31pm

My advice if the boiler is nackerd is to get a valiant fitted they give a 5 year anti scale guarantee on the hot water heat exchanger.
Fit the widget Mr scruff has fitted on his as well and get a good local Gas safe Engineer who has fitted localy to put it in for you. :)

Title: Re: Scale filter????
Post by thescruff on Mar 9^th, 2011, 12:52am

I'm an Intergas fan, no diverter valve to go wrong for a start, a very good product that beats anything on the market hands down.

Title: Re: Scale filter????
Post by Wayne B on Mar 9^th, 2011, 12:36pm

I will have a look at them Scruff. :)

Title: Re: Scale filter????
Post by CWatters on Mar 9^th, 2011, 2:19pm

How does the electric field get through the Farady cage formed by the copper water pipe?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage

or did he get his waters softened :-)..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZwlD-Z0zmE&feature=related

Title: Re: Scale filter????
Post by Wayne B on Mar 9^th, 2011, 3:58pm

If there is access/space to fit one a water softener is going to be the long term answer to these things.
Just change the guts regular as clockwork and away you go.

Title: Re: Scale filter????
Post by charadam on Mar 9^th, 2011, 6:48pm

Sorry been away a couple of days. Thanks for all your thoughts so far. The boiler is a Baxi 105e and the engineer said the heat exchanger was furred up with scale because this inline thingy wasn't fitted. The boiler intermittantly supplies hot water and the pressure runs very high and the radiator immediately below the boiler gets hot but all others only reach lukewarm temperatures. Do you thing changinng the heat exchanger might solve the problem?

Title: Re: Scale filter????
Post by CWatters on Mar 9^th, 2011, 7:22pm

When it does supply hot water is it generally hot enough and the flow rate ok?

Title: Re: Scale filter????
Post by Wayne B on Mar 9^th, 2011, 8:41pm

I would advise you to get a good local Gas Safe Engineer in to check the simple things.
1- take the guts out of a hot tap and have a look for furring up.
2-Drain the C/H and see what the water that comes out is like.
3-Check the general state of the system e.g. pipe sizes feeding the rads.
That way you know what your up against before you go spending money on new parts or a new boiler bud.
While the system is drained they may also take off a couple of rad valves downstairs and see what they are like inside.
Its worth taking the time to find out the state of the system as a whole.

Title: Re: Scale filter????
Post by charadam on Mar 11^th, 2011, 11:10am

Thanks to all so far.
All the replies seem to indicate that the boiler is probably not knackered and that a proper investigation is needed.
Is that a fair summary?

Title: Re: Scale filter????
Post by thescruff on Mar 11^th, 2011, 2:33pm

I certainly think a second opinion should be on the cards

Title: Re: Scale filter????
Post by Wayne B on Mar 11^th, 2011, 5:42pm

If you get a good local engineer to check the steps I gave you bud you will know for sure after that get him to remove the heat exchanger and have a look.
All these steps before you spend a dime on anything else.