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https://www.askthetrades.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl DIY Forum >> Electrical Questions >> re-fitting a ceiling rose https://www.askthetrades.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1315334709 Message started by jockster on Sep 6^th, 2011, 7:45pm

Title: re-fitting a ceiling rose
Post by jockster on Sep 6^th, 2011, 7:45pm

Hi All,

Sorry to ask such a dull question.

I took down a spotlight that I installed in a bedroom a few years back and now I can't remember how to fit back the original ceiling rose. I drew a picture of the wires that come out of the ceiling and scanned in the instructions that come with the rose. I hope these can be seen in my "gallery". Two loose blacks, two loose reds and two earths that are bound together.

I switched off the relevant circuit before taking it down of course and all that is affected is the bedroom light in question and the kitchen ceiling light downstairs. None of the other 4 bedrooms upstairs are on the same circuit which is odd but then it's a very old house.

To excuse myself I haven't been lazy and have checked for other similar questions line but I wanted to be absolutely sure to get it right.

Thank you!

[gallery fullsize]jockster/1315334193.jpg[/gallery]

Title: Re: re-fitting a ceiling rose
Post by Lectrician on Sep 6^th, 2011, 8:11pm

You need to know which cable is going to switch, either by tracing it through or beeping it out.

Something like this:

Your pendent is different by the looks of it, ignore your pendent diagrams "loop" cable, and use my diagram which shows the switch cable and the blank supply cable.

[gallery fullsize]jockster/1315336177.jpg[/gallery]

If you did get the blacks the wrong way around, it would still work, but would not be right. The blue in the flex would be live and the brown in the flex neutral.

Title: Re: re-fitting a ceiling rose
Post by jockster on Sep 7^th, 2011, 12:34am

Ah. "Beep it out"! Yes, of course, with one of those wall meters or whatever they're called. Luckily I do have one. So once i know which is the switch wire then it's all pretty straightforward isn't it? My Rose hasn't got blue and brown wires in it as it is a type of clip style whereby one removes the pendant by sliding it in / out of the central rose but I can follow your diagram and the one on the box as well. Thank you so much!

Title: Re: re-fitting a ceiling rose
Post by baz on Sep 7^th, 2011, 8:57am

Only do this test with the power off!!

Title: Re: re-fitting a ceiling rose
Post by jockster on Sep 7^th, 2011, 10:33am

Hmm yes actually, how do I do the "beep test" please? I have a wire finder or whatever they're called but have never really used it for anything like this. I would think, not knowing much about it, that if there is no current running (as that circuit is now off) that nothing would show up. How do I differentiate between the switch cable and the other one?

Title: Re: re-fitting a ceiling rose
Post by sparxxxx on Sep 7^th, 2011, 11:50am

Turn off the isolator on your consumer unit/fuseboard. You then at the light test between black and red, the pair that 'beep' when the light switch is operated are the live and switchline.

Title: Re: re-fitting a ceiling rose
Post by jockster on Sep 7^th, 2011, 11:56am

Sorry me again. I'm confused still as the pendant I have is different from this image and also there are two black wires with nothing at all to differentiate them (i.e. no sleeving etc). As the kitchen lights haven't not working since I cut the power to this particular circuit, can I leave these wires as is (i.e. "dangling") and turn the power back on or will the break in the wiring circuit be a problem?

I realise this sounds incredibly dangerous but I need to get the lights back on downstairs as everyone is fed up waiting in the dark while I try to sort out this problem! I have connection blocks to house the individual loose wires and proper insulation tape. I would also would push the wires back up into the ceiling which is about 8-9ft up, so the wires will not touch nor be grabbed by anybody in the meantime.

Title: Re: re-fitting a ceiling rose
Post by CWatters on Sep 7^th, 2011, 3:19pm

Have you tried wiring it up as suggested above? I ask because it should work even if you swap the two black wires over.

The main points are:

The red wires are connected together in the rose and to nothing else.

The earth wires are connected together in the rose and probably to nothing else. On some light fittings the fitting has an earth which should be connected to the two earth wires.

The light bulb (eg the two wires to the pendant) are connected to the two black wires. The "switched live" with the red sleeve should really connect to the brown one but it will work if you have them the wrong way around. This is more important on other types of light fitting.

Title: Re: re-fitting a ceiling rose
Post by jockster on Sep 7^th, 2011, 5:22pm

Thanks for the comments Well, no i haven't been able to actually. I'm away from it now and won't be back until late tonight when someone will be asleep in the room! But the problem I have is that the pendant I have has no brown and blue wires. I wish it did, it would make life far easier for a novice like me. The last one that I replaced did, and I had no problem with that one. As far as I can remember without having it in front of me, it has live, neutral, loop and earth. I should have scanned in the actual piece and uploaded it. Might do that when I get home actually.

But in the mean time, should I assume that both reds go in live, the earth in earth, one black in neutral and the other black in loop?

Title: Re: re-fitting a ceiling rose
Post by Lectrician on Sep 7^th, 2011, 5:33pm

Like this - remember the earths too!

You should figure out which the switch cable is and place some red tape or red sleeve over it (just a short bit to identify it).

What meter have you got? Pic? Has it got two leads, has it got a setting that beeps when you touch the prongs together?

[gallery fullsize]jockster/1315413107.jpg[/gallery]

Or, if this is easier

[gallery fullsize]jockster/1315413792.jpg[/gallery]

Title: Re: re-fitting a ceiling rose
Post by jockster on Sep 7^th, 2011, 8:53pm

That last picture is excellent and explains it perfectly, many thanks. I don't have a multimeter actually. I only have a wire / stud detector so perhaps I should buy one as they are pretty cheap aren't they? Cheaper then a call out charge anyway! If that black wire was identified by a red strip or whatever this would have all been so much easier...

Title: Re: re-fitting a ceiling rose
Post by jockster on Sep 9^th, 2011, 12:48pm

All done, safe and working! Just wanted to say many, many thanks for putting in the time to help me out!

Cheers,
Jim