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https://www.askthetrades.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl DIY Forum >> Electrical Questions >> part p https://www.askthetrades.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1095702771 Message started by spot on Sep 20^th, 2004, 6:52pm

Title: part p
Post by spot on Sep 20^th, 2004, 6:52pm

can any one help with this one?
do you need 2391 to get registered and pass the part p domestic installers scheme, or will they help you through it, say i went with niceic?

cheers.........spot.

Title: Re: part p
Post by HandyMac on Sep 20^th, 2004, 8:18pm

My understanding is that you need 2381 and 2391 prior to being accepted by the gestapo. Best to check their web site for the actual details though.

Andrew

Title: Re: part p
Post by L.Spark on Sep 20^th, 2004, 8:53pm

Hello Spot

The NICEIC will require you or other responsible person to have 2381 and 2391 and also some other main form of certificate e.g. NVQ or C&G Electrical installation, or apreticeship equivalent

hope this helps

Title: Re: part p
Post by tellondon on Sep 20^th, 2004, 10:06pm

I was told that only the 2381 was needed and the ability to show that your competent to test not nessascarily the 2391

Title: Re: part p
Post by L.Spark on Sep 20^th, 2004, 10:22pm

Intresting Tellondon, I found all this ages ago from a requirements listing, partp.co.uk gives a better list tho actualy, and allows for similar positions with qualifications onc/nvq/scq/C&G etc

I would think the 2391 is most important to them, being self certification and having to test all your work, before 238 was overlooked if person had trained to 16th regulations in the course's

Title: Re: part p
Post by The_Trician on Sep 22^nd, 2004, 4:45pm

NIC only want 2381.

partp.co.uk is a site for one of the other organisations which will be running a scheme - not sure which, but its not the NIC. No mention of 2391 requirement on NIC site, nor has anyone mentioned it who is already a member.

TT

Title: Re: part p
Post by spot on Sep 22^nd, 2004, 7:20pm

thanks TT

i have looked at the NIC site and there is no requirement for 2391 but you must show the ability to be able to test and inspect and hold all the correct test gear.
i suppose if you hold 2391 then its a bonus!!

spot.

Title: Re: part p
Post by L.Spark on Sep 22^nd, 2004, 9:12pm

wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2004, 4:45pm:

Well thats strange TT, How this can be when the idea of self certification is testing your own work, 2391 should be the first thing they want.

partp.co.uk is run by BRE certification.

as I say, it's silly imo that 2391 is not more important if they want everything to be above board.

Title: Re: part p
Post by tellondon on Sep 22^nd, 2004, 9:16pm

Basically any joe soap can do a ten week part time course or 2 days in a private college and become part P approved, makes a mockary of doing a 3/4 year apprenticeship

Title: Re: part p
Post by L.Spark on Sep 22^nd, 2004, 10:16pm

Still disagree with the idea of one part time course is enough, there must be a requirements list somewhere which states what is required, I came across is before but like everything NIC, it's not always so upfront!

Title: Re: part p
Post by tellondon on Sep 22^nd, 2004, 11:49pm

http://www.niceic.org.uk/partp/partprequire.html

These are the requirements of the NICEIC scheme,i presume the others are very similar

Title: Re: part p
Post by L.Spark on Sep 23^rd, 2004, 12:18am

So I see, they have changed there requirements again >:(

Title: Re: part p
Post by John Davies on Sep 23^rd, 2004, 12:52am

Those who like me have projects which are likely to fall under part P may be interested in cutting and pasting the site below. You will need Adobe Acrobat.

http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/groups/odpm_buildreg/documents/page/odpm_breg_030323.pdf

John Davies

Title: Re: part p
Post by L.Spark on Sep 23^rd, 2004, 1:17am

Hey John

What types of work do you undertake?

Title: Re: part p
Post by John Davies on Sep 23^rd, 2004, 11:41am

I am doing a refurbishment at the moment. I will also be erecting a kitchen and garage which will come under part P as foundations will not be dug by January.

I was originally going to wire the extension myself and then get it professionally hooked up and the whole house installation checked, but now, if I have understood part P correctly, I will have to get the extension professionally rewired and the rest checked out at the same time or else do the work myself and pay to have the electrical work to the extension inspected by Building Control or their agent.

I may see if any of my electrican friends will let me string the cables and then charge to fit sockets etc., hook up, provide an installation certificate and check out and certify the rest of the house. This might keep the cost down a little.

Evry time I think I understand Building Regs the goalposts move a little further away. However, I can't argue with the fact that electrical installations should be safe, and I have seen some horrible work in the past - not all of it done by amateurs like myself.................

John Davies

Title: Re: part p
Post by tellondon on Sep 23^rd, 2004, 6:08pm

Ive just applied to become an approved contractor with the NICEIC, it doesnt require me to have the 2381 certificate as long as i passed my 2360 part 2 since 1992, as ive always thought the 2381 certificate is also called the 16th edition exam, it is really to explain and understand the 16th edition regs and to bring people who done there apprenticeship under a previous set of regs up to date
Perhaps you was looking at the requirements to become an approved contractor LS ? You definately need the 2391 exam as a requirement then

Title: Re: part p
Post by L.Spark on Sep 23^rd, 2004, 9:12pm

Yeah, Im following the same thing with the 16th also in that it is for people to learn about the regulations and how we applicate them, but obviusly 2360 runs along 16th eddition standards, im taking on 16th eddition as an extra altho I learnt to 16th edditon, this is because some companys ask for it regardless of the fact you learnt to it ::)

good luck with NIC tellondon, hopefully all will go smoothly enough.

Title: Re: part p
Post by unphased on Sep 24^th, 2004, 9:41pm

This is in response to John Davies post in particular.

I am going to stick my neck out here �:-X

I have in front of me the actual approved document on Part P of the building regs so I believe I am equipped to answer the query better than most "off-the-cuff" heard this read that type comments that fill the forum!

If you want to build your own extension you have to work to the building regs right? So are you a builder? Are you notifying the building control of your building?
Point here is this. I cannot see anything in the ACTUAL APPROVED DOCUMENT that says you have to be a fully qualified or fully certified electrician to carry out this kind of work. �If you know what you are doing and you get your work tested and inspected by a qualified electrician AND you notify the building control of your works in accordance with building regs then I see no problem with your plans to do it yourself. �All you would do is add another inspection requirement to your list of things to do and ensure you get your work inspected and tested to BS7671 in order to comply with Part P. Dont listen to all the crap that is being banded about by people who have never bothered reading the stuff and just go by what they hear etc. Take it from me mate just go ahead and do it.

First step. If you carry out your building work AFTER 1 Jan 2005 then part P will be in force. Notify building control inspector that you are carrying out electrical work (just as you would notify them of the building work) and send appropriate fee. (This I expect will be available from each of the LA's at the appropriate time).
Second step. Get an electrician lined up to test and inspect your work.
Step 3. Install your wiring as the building work progresses in the usual manner.
Step 4. Act on any comments issued to you (if any) from the building inspector.
Step 5. Get the BS7671 Test and inspection certificate.
Thats it!

That will IMHO comply fully with Part P and so long as building control okay it then you are home and dry. You wont be breaking the law, you wont need to be part of any schemes and you wont be infringing the building regs.

Let the comments begin....

Roy ::)

Title: Re: part p
Post by The_Trician on Sep 24^th, 2004, 10:54pm

Hi Roy,
I'll be the first to hold my hand up and admit that I have not FULLY read the ODPM document, but from those who are punting the schemes the emphasis is on the fact that if, for example, you are adding an extra circuit, and you are not a registered/approved/self certifier, the you ARE, or WILL BE breaking the law post Jan 05.

Now, is this correct or incorrect?
There's a subtle difference between doing it and getting it approved after the event, but if say, you are a builder who has NOT applied for permission PRIOR to commencing the work, then Local Councils have been known to get a court order to have the building pulled down at your expense, irrespective as to whether or not the building work meets all the criteria.

Now, say you totally rewire your house and don't notify Building Control. They have a right to get you to have it all ripped out, irrespective of whether or not it meets BS7671 et al. The very fact that you didn't notify them would give them adequate grounds. They may even point out that even if you do tell them, but you yourself ARE NOT an approved self-certifier, then the same could happen - yes?

TT

Title: Re: part p
Post by fubar on Sep 25^th, 2004, 1:05am

Unphased,

You are mostly correct with your steps, however
a) building control will inspect the work (probably by asking their local NAPIT or NICEIC member to inspect on their behalf).
b) you have to give the appropriate notice at each stage. �ISTR it is 48 hours notice before stage 1 and 24 hours notice for the inspections.
c) you have to invite building control to inspect the work once before it is covered up and again just before the installation is put into service.

wrote on Sep 24^th, 2004, 10:54pm:

Yes, all the scheme provides really are misleading us. �The part of the approved document that is relevant here is section 0.7 and 0.8. �Either the building control must be notified as unphased outlined (section 0.7) OR the person is registered with an approved scheme (section 0.8a), OR the work is non-notifiable (section 0.8b)

Quote:

Now, say you totally rewire your house and don't notify Building Control. They have a right to get you to have it all ripped out, irrespective of whether or not it meets BS7671 et al. The very fact that you didn't notify them would give them adequate grounds.

Correct

Quote:

They may even point out that even if you do tell them, but you yourself ARE NOT an approved self-certifier, then the same could happen - yes?

No, see above.

Title: Re: part p
Post by The_Trician on Sep 25^th, 2004, 10:29am

There is of course, the thorny issue of retrospective consent too....

TT

Title: Re: part p
Post by The_Trician on Sep 25^th, 2004, 10:35am

How about the scenario where a non-registered spark carries out a complete rewire for example, and tells the client that the only time they'll need a cert is when they sell the property, which could be years on in the future.

Come selling time, all the client has to do is get a PIR done on the property to complete the supposedly forthcoming 'House-seller's pack'. and Building Control are non the wiser. The trick is to make sure the installation fully complies when its done, leaving just a PIR and no remedial work. All 3 parties 'win'.

Seller has a cert to say all is well, non-registered sparks has earnt a few bob, and the registered sparks gets a cut for the PIR. Everyone's happy and Building Control have had an extra burden taken off their shoulders.

And best of all -Tony Bliar's mob have been left out in the cold!

Job sorted!

TT

Title: Re: part p
Post by unphased on Sep 25^th, 2004, 11:32am

Hiya TT and fubar

Point I am trying to bring out about the Part P hype is that all emphasis appears to be focused (wrongly and misleadingly) on the self certification schemes and the criminal aspect of non-compliance.

There is already a myth quite firmly planted in the majority of sparks minds that DIY work will no longer be possible. If a DIY'er is competent enough to wire a house or a circuit or make alterations and extensions then, provided he goes about it in the correct way by notifying building control and paying the fee and getting it inspected and passed there is no reason why a DIY'er cannot comply. �As fubar points out if the work is found to be unacceptable by the building inspector it will simply not be passed. It doesn't mean that the DIY'er will be branded a criminal and all the rest of it. �The work would simply have to be brought up to a standard that building control will accept.

There is a section in Part P (0.8 b ii) which highlights my point in relation to non-notifiable work and which I reproduce here in full:

"When the non-notifiable work described in Table 1 is to be undertaken by a DIY worker, a way of showing compliance would be to follow the IEE guidance or guidance in other authoritative manuals that are based on this, and to have a competent person inspect and test the work and supply a Minor Electrical Installation Works Certificate. The competent person need not necessarily be registered with an electrical self-certification scheme but, as required by BS 7671, must be competent in respect of the inspection and testing of an installation."

I recommend that you download Part P, TT, from the ODPM website. It doesn't take long and you will be pleasantly surprised by the content! �:)

Roy

Title: Re: part p
Post by fubar on Sep 25^th, 2004, 11:35am

wrote on Sep 25^th, 2004, 10:35am:

I'm sure there are lots of ways for the cowboys to evade Part P, Trician, just like there are ways for them evade VAT. �It will be interesting to see what happens with the proposed warranty schemes.

I would expect to see text that says that the warranty is only valid when an electrical installation or minor works certificate has been issued. �So customers will get to choose between a cowboy without a warranty and a professional tradesperson with a warranty (and probably higher prices).

What I really can't understand is why none of the other schemes have undercut NICEICs prices.

Title: Re: part p
Post by L.Spark on Sep 25^th, 2004, 3:42pm

Quote:

There is already a myth quite firmly planted in the majority of sparks minds that DIY work will no longer be possible. If a DIY'er is competent enough to wire a house or a circuit or make alterations and extensions then, provided he goes about it in the correct way by notifying building control and paying the fee and getting it inspected and passed there is no reason why a DIY'er cannot comply. �As fubar points out if the work is found to be unacceptable by the building inspector it will simply not be passed. It doesn't mean that the DIY'er will be branded a criminal and all the rest of it. �The work would simply have to be brought up to a standard that building control will accept. �

Very much so UP, I have to admit I have noy had time to get hold of the aproved part p yet, what I have is all pre-aproved stuff which was in debate.

Im not going to stick my neck out on this without reading the report, but unless someone is very confident, I wouldnt advise them to do this work anyway.

However it may or may not be the case that the work can be carried out by say a DIY'r, At the moment (Pre January 05) it can be and this would be the time to commence work!, after January if its ok for competent persons to do the work e.g. confident DIY'r - with aproval and proper notification to LABC, then I can't see where there would be any problem

Title: Re: part p
Post by ChubbyPhaseWire on Sep 25^th, 2004, 3:52pm

(edited)

'New law spells end to DIY electrics and cowboy electricians'

CLANG
LMFAO

Title: Re: part p
Post by L.Spark on Sep 25^th, 2004, 4:15pm

You missed out the laughing emoticon, I shouldnt have to dumb it all down just for you �;)

p.s. dont associate my name with something I didnt say = thx 8)

Title: Re: part p
Post by fubar on Sep 25^th, 2004, 5:06pm

wrote on Sep 25^th, 2004, 11:32am:

It doesn't mean that the DIY'er will be branded a criminal and all the rest of it. �The work would simply have to be brought up to a standard that building control will accept.

To clarify, while in this scenario (notifying building control properly, but then performing sub-standard work), building control will likely give you every opportunity to bring the work up to scratch, two things should be noted:

a) �telling building control but not filling in their forms and/or not paying the fee is considered as failure to notify.

b) �There are serious financial penalties for failure to notify building control, including a �5000 fine for each occurence (complete failure to notify building control would be considered three offences, so, that is �15000 for each "job"). There are ongoing fines, too. �If I understand it correctly, the offence is known by the snappy title "An offence under the Building Act 1984 (as ammended)". �

While the requirement to notify building control for electrical work is new, the actual building control notification process remains the same - it will simply apply to include electrical work as well as windows, doors, RSJs, etc - so you can read about the generic rules and fines on your local building control website right now.

Title: Re: part p
Post by Beanzy on Sep 25^th, 2004, 9:42pm

The Part P schemes only offer a way around the cost and faff of the notification process. The preliminary notification around here costs �70 and the completion one and inspection can be �120-260 depending on the scale of the work..... not good. Really it's a way of introducing the new regs without stuffing a huge bill on people who do it day in day out. For something like an extension or a re-wire the thing doesn't really factor in as there'll be Regs notifications and inspections going on anyway so PartP will get lumped into that anyway.

The only thing you can get from the NICEIC reg'd spark is a PIR which won't prove compliance with the buildings regs. NAPIT bods can inspect others work and certify it so they may be a better route for the go it alone approach, but you'll have to have them come by a few times during the work so they can inspect cable routings and erection methods.

Title: Re: part p
Post by trowelhead on Sep 25^th, 2004, 9:56pm

Am i reading ths right:- As long as the BCO is informed for certain electrical works (and the obligitory fee paid >:() then this will comply with part p.
Question:- How does the inspector know?Is he/she a qualified person?Or am i totally missing the point here? :-/

Title: Re: part p
Post by tellondon on Sep 25^th, 2004, 10:23pm

As long as the work is done to the BS 7671 standard with full inspection and test then yes anyone can do it

Im not sure if BC will test it themselves, they will have to recruit alot of electrical engineers between now and the new year if they are, my GUESS is that they might get registered NICEIC approved companys to do it for them

Title: Re: part p
Post by fubar on Sep 25^th, 2004, 10:33pm

wrote on Sep 25^th, 2004, 9:56pm:

Am i reading ths right:- As long as the BCO is informed for certain electrical works (and the obligitory fee paid >:() then this will comply with part p.

Yes, as long as you notify them as described earlier in this thread and as long as you are able to show that you have met the requirements of Part P (essentially, to adhere to BS7671), including suitable inspection and testing prior to being put into service.

Quote:

Question:- How does the inspector know?Is he/she a qualified person?Or am i totally missing the point here? :-/

The funny thing is that building control don't yet know how they will be running their side of this scheme. �A minority of offices will have officers right now who are competent to inspect electrical work. �It is assumed that most, if not all, will farm out the inspection work to NICEIC or NAPIT members, at least until they are able to build their in-house competency.

Title: Re: part p
Post by The_Trician on Sep 26^th, 2004, 1:16am

Personally, I cannot vere see the day when LABC offices in all areas of the country will ever be in a position financially to employ their own electrical inspectors.

The Local Authorities are unpopular enough as it is already, what with year-on-year Council Tax rises.

There presently no extra monies coming from Central Govt to fund Part P and the extra resources required to enforce it effectively, nor do I believe that there ever will be.

I reckon it'll all be farmed out via CCT to 'Approved Contractors.

TT