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https://www.askthetrades.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl DIY Forum >> Electrical Questions >> Safety of light fittings https://www.askthetrades.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1119475889 Message started by akuk on Jun 22^nd, 2005, 10:31pm

Title: Safety of light fittings
Post by akuk on Jun 22^nd, 2005, 10:31pm

Hi, I have been asked to remove few light fittings from a house and install them in a new house, (just built).
I have my ideas but I would like to hear yours as well:
1) is it ok to leave the wires in the old house terminated with a connection block, instead of the removed light fittings?
2) After removing the light fittings do I need to test the circuits, or I can assume that under the regs. when a house changes hands a periodic inspection will be carried out any how + someone will put new lights and will have to test .
3) does the removal of lights require certificate? (Minor works)
3) The new house was just built, does it come under changing owner or I can rely on the fact that it is new and was tested, and so test only the relevant circuits that I modified?.
Albert

Title: Re: Safety of light fittings
Post by L.Spark on Jun 23^rd, 2005, 12:09am

Firstly, don't rely on anything albert, ever

Quote:

1) is it ok to leave the wires in the old house terminated with a connection block

No, all connection's must be enclosed, so you would need to have a junction box or a chocbox even better, you can get these from a wholesaler or screwfix

Quote:

2) After removing the light fittings do I need to test the circuits, or I can assume that under the regs. when a house changes hands a periodic inspection will be carried out any how + someone will put new lights and will have to test .

Theres no need to test if you're removing fittings, just make safe all connections, anything done after you leave is down to the person ordering or doing the work

Quote:

3) does the removal of lights require certificate? (Minor works)

Not that I'm aware of

Quote:

3) The new house was just built, does it come under changing owner or I can rely on the fact that it is new and was tested, and so test only the relevant circuits that I modified?.

Not exactly sure what you mean by this question. If it's a like for like swap there's no requirement to test, however regulations state that equipotential bonding must be checked before any work is carried out., and again you can't assume or rely on anything when carrying out work.

Title: Re: Safety of light fittings
Post by akuk on Jun 23^rd, 2005, 6:41am

wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2005, 12:09am:

Firstly, don't rely on anything albert,ever

Yep, I never do, that is why you hear from me all the time.

Quote:

I mean that, if someone buys a house from another person and both houses are old (people lived in before), the regs. are very cleare that a periodic inspection has to be carried out, my question relats to a completely new house that was just built and these people will be the first to live in, theoretecally the constructor should provide them all the certs. necessary, do I need to test again? or just do the work and certify the relevant circuits.

Title: Re: Safety of light fittings
Post by santacruz on Jun 23^rd, 2005, 6:56am

I think you will find the to-be buyers solicitor will be up in arms if you simply leave choc blocks at light fittings.

Why not simply shove up some pendants - I purchased a box of ten recently £1 each!! Yes they were new, no they were not stolen, they were acquired from a very large outlet. Cheaper than a chocbox!

Title: Re: Safety of light fittings
Post by Lectrician on Jun 23^rd, 2005, 4:19pm

Yep, you need to put up roses.

Umm....certs, as it is not replacing like for like, it is not maintenance and requires a cert (minor works) >:(

So strictly speaking, if no main bonding.......

Title: Re: Safety of light fittings
Post by Beanzy on Jun 23^rd, 2005, 8:26pm

Yep, nowt to do with our regs, but plenty to do with the sale of the house. If they want the old fittings they have to leave the house with the same number of light fittings in the same place as when the purchaser viewed and agreed the purchase. Normally just swap for pendant (maintenance) and do a M/W cert with the loop and what not.

If they leave nothing they could be stung badly by a suit.

Title: Re: Safety of light fittings
Post by plugwash on Jun 23^rd, 2005, 11:42pm

surely changing the light fittings for a less desirable type between viewing and sale could cause issues with the buyers

Title: Re: Safety of light fittings
Post by Lurch on Jun 24^th, 2005, 12:32am

wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2005, 11:42pm:

surely changing the light fittings for a less desirable type between viewing and sale could cause issues with the buyers

Depends what's listed in the fixtures & fittings list and what agreement was made between them. It's not our problem anyway, it's between the seller and buyer.

Title: Re: Safety of light fittings
Post by JerryD on Jun 25^th, 2005, 8:06am

wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2005, 11:42pm:

surely changing the light fittings for a less desirable type between viewing and sale could cause issues with the buyers

This is true, might as well change all the internal walnut veneer doors for B&Q hardboard doors while you're there :-/

I'd get the order to remove these fitings in writing so that you don't get any of the flack if there is a dispute with the buyer of the house who may be expecting the nice light fittings to still be there when they move in.

There have been many court cases over situations like this, one family moved in only to find all the patio paving had been removed! :o

Title: Re: Safety of light fittings
Post by akuk on Jun 25^th, 2005, 10:51am

Hi, I am pleased to see that I made you all busy again... ;)
1) this is an exchange, the builder buys the old house from my customer and sales her a new house. So you can see it can be a lots of negotiations here.

Quote:

Posted by: santacruz Why not simply shove up some pendants - I purchased a box of ten recently £1 each!! Yes they were new, no they were not stolen, they were acquired from a very large outlet. Cheaper than a chocbox!

I am holding in my hands Pendents and few jB's that I got just in case, and I paid about what you said under £10 for 4 pendents and 4 20A JBs.

Quote:

Posted by: Lectrician Posted on: Jun 23rd, 2005, 4:19pm
Yep, you need to put up roses.
Umm....certs, as it is not replacing like for like, it is not maintenance and requires a cert (minor works)
So strictly speaking, if no main bonding.......

I think that I need a hint on this one...can you explain? The minor work, cert. as you know, is not the issue, I don't want to spend to much time there when it is not necessary but I want to do the right thing...as well as I would like to give a realistic quote.

Quote:

Posted by: JerryD Posted on: Today at 8:06am on Jun 23rd, 2005, 11:42pm,
I'd get the order to remove these fitings in writing...

This is something I learnt from working as a service engineer (30 years), every job order has to be written, and this one no different.
I am not worried about the legal issue, as I am doing what asked to do (in writing), please can you experts agree what would be the proper and reasonable way to do this ;D?, Installing the fitting in the new house is more simple, as it is brand new, I adviced the customer to make sure that the builder will provide her with all the documentations, and certificats, when I concetrated on the electrics, I mentione the Electrical installation cert., scdhedule of inspection and schedule of test resaults.

Title: Re: Safety of light fittings
Post by L.Spark on Jun 25^th, 2005, 10:51pm

Quote:

Hi, I am pleased to see that I made you all busy again

Are you stirring it all up again Albert ;D

Title: Re: Safety of light fittings
Post by akuk on Jun 26^th, 2005, 10:59am

wrote on Jun 25^th, 2005, 10:51pm:

Are you stirring it all up again Albert ;D

No, I trying to make it clear... >:(
I promise that if you find a clear answer to this one, I will let you go... 8) (don't be so happy, only on this issue.. ;))
My question is; after changing the light fittings with the standard pendent fittings (in the house that was sold), do I need to test the relevant circuits? I think that it is changing like with like, (I will provide a Minor works any how..). I went to see the house and it seems that they have no problem with the main bonding, the system is TN-S, and there is a connection between the main earth terminal and the gas & water pipes, BTW- is this enough to calim that there is an indirect protection by EEBADS? (this is as a response to Lectrician's remark...)

Title: Re: Safety of light fittings
Post by L.Spark on Jun 26^th, 2005, 12:44pm

Quote:

My question is; after changing the light fittings with the standard pendent fittings (in the house that was sold), do I need to test the relevant circuits?

If you end up doing a Minor work's as it's not like for like replacement, then you're be testing that particular circuit anyway

Title: Re: Safety of light fittings
Post by Beanzy on Jun 27^th, 2005, 1:43am

The rating of the pendants doesn't change? they're still Class1? then it's maintainance, not a new load point, change of class, or increased load, so MW will be the correct cert. You could however just test and record and file, as it's not strictly an alteration to the circuit. Can be handy if you just want to list a stack of similar swap-outs ie: same info as MW but just all on one letter/cert.

If there's a fault such as main bonding you shouldn't alter anything until that's sorted anyway. So if they want to shift their fittings they need to do so leaving the installation safe. (ie need would to get the bonding sorted)

Title: Re: Safety of light fittings
Post by akuk on Jun 27^th, 2005, 8:22am

wrote on Jun 27^th, 2005, 1:43am:

It sounds right, just changing to standard fittings, with standard bulbs, no change on: position, load or any other part.

Quote:

If there's a fault such as main bonding you shouldn't alter anything until that's sorted anyway. So if they want to shift their fittings they need to do so leaving the installation safe. (ie need would to get the bonding sorted)

the system is TN-S, and there is a connection between the main earth terminal and the gas & water pipes, BTW- is this enough to calim that there is an indirect protection by EEBADS? and bonding exists, or there is another way or requirements?

Title: Re: Safety of light fittings
Post by The_Trician on Jun 27^th, 2005, 1:44pm

To be honest, I'd just get on and change the fittings.

This is becoming far too complicated for its own good.

Firstly, its just a swap, so there's no real need for any paperwork apart from your invoice.

You haven't carried out work on other parts of the electrical installation, and if its a new build, the original contractor will have certed it all.
(Hope I'm correct here - same house as the one in your other thread?)

Bonding shouldn't be an issue if the place is new.
By all means check to see if there a 2 x 10mm cables in the CU, along with the 16mm main earthing conductor - that's as far as I'd go with it.

TT

Title: Re: Safety of light fittings
Post by The_Trician on Jun 27^th, 2005, 1:50pm

One other thing - If the light fittings you are removing from the 'old house' are all metal or require an earth(class 1), and there isn't a cpc at each fitting, then you are actually doing the right thing by removng these unearthed fittings!
I presume the 'new house' will already have a cpc at each lighting point, so you're ok there.

I'd say YES - you can claim EEBADS is alive and well at both properties.

TT

Title: Re: Safety of light fittings
Post by L.Spark on Jun 27^th, 2005, 1:58pm

Quote:

I'd say YES - you can claim EEBADS is alive and well at both properties

No you can't, unless you can visually see the cable from start to finish a continuity test is in order!

Title: Re: Safety of light fittings
Post by akuk on Jun 27^th, 2005, 5:16pm

Been there today, removed light fittings, had cpc so no problem installing the standard fittings. I have seen the main earth conductor connected to the main earth terminal and from there to the CU and to the water and gas pipes, checked continuity from the main earthing terminal to the CU (earth) and to the pipes, reading about 0.10 ohm, sounds good to me.
Continuity of cpc was a hige (I checked 2 circuits), one was 2.88 ohm and the other 1.04 ohm, 6A old type mcb (PROTEUS), Zs allowed is about 6.7 ohm (acording to BS7671).
Had difficulties in checking Zs, probably something wrong in my procedure...

Quote:

TT wrote: To be honest, I'd just get on and change the fittings.

Yes you might be right but the customer asked for a certificate as she does not want problems with the buyer, (a builder).

Title: Re: Safety of light fittings
Post by Beanzy on Jun 28^th, 2005, 5:30am

Those readings are none too shabby for a 1mm cpc core. It passes so job done :) happy lady customer and you've done the doccos so no probs from buyer.