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https://www.askthetrades.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl DIY Forum >> Carpentry Questions >> Timber carcassing sizes https://www.askthetrades.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1239548673 Message started by CWatters on Apr 12^th, 2009, 4:04pm

Title: Timber carcassing sizes
Post by CWatters on Apr 12^th, 2009, 4:04pm

I'm trying to work up a cutting list and it being Easter nowhere is open. to call..

What's the most common stocked length for 4x2 carcassing timber? 2.4m or 2.7m or ? Internet sites seem to sell it any number of different standard lengths upto 4.8 meters.

If you need a mix of 2.4 meter and some longer stuff is there any mileage in ordering it all 4.8m and cutting down it yourself or is 4.8 not commonly stocked? Does it work out more expensive per meter if you buy 4.8 meter lengths?

Thanks.

Title: Re: Timber carcassing sizes
Post by Zambezi on Apr 12^th, 2009, 4:07pm

In Zimbabwe it used to be more expensive for longer lengths (purely because it is more difficult to get long lengths out out a tree). I noticed however in Wickes the other day that the longer the length the cheaper it is??!! Try the Wickes website for timber sizes and prices, they deliver now too.

Title: Re: Timber carcassing sizes
Post by JerryD on Apr 13^th, 2009, 1:09am

Good timber merchants should stock the following lengths in 47 x 100 (4x2)

2.4
2.7
3.0
3.6
4.2
4.5
4.8
5.4
5.7
6.0
6.6
7.2

Price per metre increases from 6.0m or longer, below that it is all the same rate per metre.

A cutting list is one thing, what they deliver is another (and it's usually their choice), for example:

Your cutting list might be -

24/2.4
20/2.7
16/3.3

But they could deliver -

16/5.7 (this is 16/3.3 + 16/2.4)
4/4.8 (this is 8/2.4)
10/5.4 (this is 20/2.7)

Therefore it's vital to keep your cutting list and mark up your delivery ticket with the permutations of what's been ordered against what you got delivered. All too easy to start using the wrong bits and ending up with 1.8m offcuts or worse.

Title: Re: Timber carcassing sizes
Post by Joiner on Apr 13^th, 2009, 10:16am

Out of habit I always bought my timber either from TP or one of two timber merchants and never gave a thought to the growing pile of offcuts under the bench until I was forced to have the occasional clearout and saw it all down for kindling, giving most of it away. But then I 'discovered' B&Q!

The problem with buying from the merchants is that the lengths are variable and you're sometimes stuck with the "offcut less than 2.1 M" therefore you've got to have the full length whether you want it or not. All I can say is that since buying from B&Q, with their choice of stock lengths, the level of offcuts has fallen to negligible, with resultant savings. I get ALL my softwood from B&Q (sawn, treated and PAR), with the exception of sections like 10 x 8 up, not least because they're open 7 days a week from 7 'til 8 (weekdays) and will deliver, so downtime when I could be earning is no longer an issue so that's another financial plus.

Sorry if I sound like a plugger for B&Q but they aren't given enough consideration by the trades. Although having said that, most of the guys I know now get their stuff from there rather than the robbing sods at Jewsons because they can make the trip on a Sunday morning!

Title: Re: Timber carcassing sizes
Post by JerryD on Apr 13^th, 2009, 10:36am

I guess it depends what amount and size of timber you are buying. We buy tons of timber and get good rates from Jewson and T Brewer. B&Q could never supply us with the sections we need (large roofs, heavy floor joisting etc).

Try asking B&Q for 80/5.4 of 47x225 sawn/treated/regularised delivered to site for Wednesday (crane offload).......... :-/

Also I don't think B&Q do trade accounts do they? We can sometimes get up to 8 weeks free credit by ordering on the first of the month :D

Title: Re: Timber carcassing sizes
Post by CWatters on Apr 13^th, 2009, 10:47am

Thanks for the advice. Got some more questions about WBP Plywood....

How waterproof is it? It's likely to take be some time to build my outbuilding - it's been 11 months so far getting PP and building the foundations! It will have an initial skin of WBP before being weather boarded. The WBP could end up exposed for some months if I get delayed getting the tiled roof on etc. Is it likely to delaminate on me if it gets rained on or is it really "waterproof"?

Is there much difference between makes of WBP? I see some places advertise "Elliots WBP", "Chineese WBP", "Spruce WBP" at prices between £18 and £40 a sheet for same 12mm thickness. I need about 15 sheets so huge difference in total cost. Is it a case of you get what you pay for or is it all much the same?

Title: Re: Timber carcassing sizes
Post by Joiner on Apr 13^th, 2009, 12:14pm

True Jerry, but I doubt Cwatters wanted that much!

Yes, B&Q do trade accounts giving the usual (up to) 60 days, but a mate of mine had problems because he's never been in debt, doesn't use credit cards, and so had no credit record! Madness.

They started giving trade discounts last year in the form of a rebate of around 15%. But I find their prices competitive with the main merchants anyway and, again, that 7 day opening is worth a lot in itself. And I have had deliveries of circa £500, so although small by your standards, not that small. They'll also take stuff back if it's not wanted without charging an admin %.

Basically, it's just another option to help keep prices down and stay competitive. It's easy to get into habits and a bugger to get out of them, especially if you're on first name terms with your usual supplier(s).

Like I said, the bigger orders (granted, usually hardwood except for the larger sections of softwood) I'd take to the timber merchants because they know I'll play my face if they try to pass off rubbish and the value of the order gives me some clout. But, in fairness, having got to know the people at my local B&Q they're a good bunch and will cherry-pick for me. Any rubbish that does get through is usually in one of the packs, but they'll happily replace that without argument.

Title: Re: Timber carcassing sizes
Post by big_all on Apr 13^th, 2009, 12:16pm

you dont need expensive ply if its coverd you pay extra for the finnished layer just ask for exteriour ply

you ply should be fine with several cycles of wet and dry over several months becase its vertical and will be protected by the roof overhang

if its fully exposed without a roof i would temporeralily put a tarpaulen on the roof to give a dry area

Title: Re: Timber carcassing sizes
Post by JerryD on Apr 13^th, 2009, 2:26pm

I had a bare ply dormer (side cheeks) on the rear of my house for 15 years (it never got clad as I was planning to change the layout) and when it was eventually demolished, the ply was as good as new. Obviously it was stained and watermarked but it was structurally completely sound.

This was 18mm wpb ply. I bought the basic Far Eastern WBP as I had no need for a birch face (that just adds cost).

Title: Re: Timber carcassing sizes
Post by JerryD on Apr 13^th, 2009, 2:29pm

Joiner, what are the lengths that B&Q keep in 47x 100? Also, do you know what their price per metre is? Is it tanalised do you know?

It would be interesting to compare prices with my Jewson/Brewer accounts.

Do they keep other sizes of carcassing timber or is it just 47 x 100?

Title: Re: Timber carcassing sizes
Post by londonman on Apr 13^th, 2009, 3:34pm

Trouble with B&Q timber is that the B in their name stands for 'banana' which is how most of their timber ends up...at least down my way.

Title: Re: Timber carcassing sizes
Post by woodsmith on Apr 13^th, 2009, 4:33pm

I find ply very variable, there is a load of crap about and it can be hard to spot sometimes, that is until it starts to delaminate!

If it is exposed I'd cover it with a DPM.

How about using OSB? Probably work out cheaper

Title: Re: Timber carcassing sizes
Post by Joiner on Apr 13^th, 2009, 6:14pm

Hence the reference to 'cherry picking' Londonman. You're obviously coming in after I've been there!

Believe me, the quality of timber overall at my branch of B&Q is excellent and I use it regularly for doors, windows (both sash and casement and french). The greater the amount of stock and the turnover of timber, the better the overall standard is going to be.

And one thing I didn't say earlier is that one of the things that pissed me off about the builder's merchants was that they moaned if they saw me sorting through the wood, taking the good and leaving the crap behind as if I was obliged to take the first that came to hand. They resorted to saying that I wasn't allowed to sort through the stock because of "insurance". Magic!

If I go to my timber merchant I wear my safety safety jacket and hard hat and sort through the stacks with the yard man and fork lift operator, they'll move stuff to get me the best.

Title: Re: Timber carcassing sizes
Post by WOLF on Apr 13^th, 2009, 7:39pm

i have always found the european sourced ply to be completely cr4p!!!

the far eastern /Canadian stuff outlasts it by miles....

Title: Re: Timber carcassing sizes
Post by Twobarrows on Apr 14^th, 2009, 2:58pm

I've always used Travis Perkins for my bigger orders (DIY only) and have had great results with them. I've had tonnes of 4x2 (literally) delivered & no bananas. My local BnQ (Farnborough) conversley only stocks wibbly wobbly wood as my 4 year old calls it!! (but they do cut sheets for free!).
Wickes I find has a better class of timber but less selection.

Is the waterproof OSB as good as cheap ply? I need to build another garden shed & was thinking of framing, clad with OSB and then the decorative roof tiles covering ther outside of the walls?

Title: Re: Timber carcassing sizes
Post by Joiner on Apr 14^th, 2009, 7:02pm

I wish I hadn't said anything about Kidderminster B&Q now, everyone will be after their timber from there and I'll be left with all the crap.

Title: Re: Timber carcassing sizes
Post by Zambezi on Apr 14^th, 2009, 10:08pm

Joiner wrote on Apr 14^th, 2009, 7:02pm:

I wish I hadn't said anything about Kidderminster B&Q now, everyone will be after their timber from there and I'll be left with all the crap.

Kiddie is too far away from me (about 15 miles) you can have the timber ;D. If you find yourself in Worcester you are welcome to come and have a drink!

Title: Re: Timber carcassing sizes
Post by Joiner on Apr 14^th, 2009, 10:10pm

Pervert. You'll be offering me sweets next!

Title: Re: Timber carcassing sizes
Post by Zambezi on Apr 14^th, 2009, 10:12pm

Joiner wrote on Apr 14^th, 2009, 10:10pm:

Pervert. You'll be offering me sweets next!

Damn, you saw right through me... I will have to try some new tactics :-*

Title: Re: Timber carcassing sizes
Post by JerryD on Apr 15^th, 2009, 5:35pm

The correct name for wibbly wobbly timber is 'propeller'. That's what we get delivered when our account is overdue. :-/

Title: Re: Timber carcassing sizes
Post by mailee on Apr 15^th, 2009, 9:48pm

All the timber I have had from B&Q would make good propellors and that is about all. Only thing I buy from them now is sheet material unless it is MRMDF. ;)

Title: Re: Timber carcassing sizes
Post by Joiner on Apr 15^th, 2009, 10:43pm

As I was rained off today I decided to do some preparatory work done on a job I'm starting next week and so had some time to spare. I decided to do a little ad hoc survey.

I decided on (ex) 8" x 1" board as the one probably most affected by distortion. I decided to check ten boards, the first I came to in each rack. I went to Travis Perkins, Tippers and B&Q.

Ratio was of bad to good...

TP 5:10

Tippers 6:10

B&Q 3:10

I'll stick with B&Q. You guys go where you like.

Title: Re: Timber carcassing sizes
Post by Zambezi on Apr 15^th, 2009, 11:45pm

I can't say I have ever been into any place that has not had propellers, some more than others. It can vary from one delivery to the next, even one bundle to the next. I always inspect any timber I buy to make sure I select the bits I am happy with. Loads of places don't transport, stack or store it correctly, so there are bound to be some propellers.

Title: Re: Timber carcassing sizes
Post by Joiner on Apr 16^th, 2009, 8:39am

Yeah, the whole issue is one that's bound to pull up differences of opinion, depending on each individual's experience.

Idigbo is another contentious area. My experience of the stuff has been horrendous. Last year I walked away from a £16K barn conversion job (all the doors, windows and staircases) because they insisted on idigbo. It is bloody awful stuff. Talk about bananas!

My son asked me to make a large door for a property he was working on. The estate manager had been told about idigbo and insisted that's what it should be made of, rather than oak. Having usually worked with just British hardwoods, I thought 'Well, why not try a tropical?' Seemed fine enough. I cut it all down to rough section size, planed it all-round to finish size and left the sections for machining the following day, all laid out on the bench. I couldn't believe what I came back to the next morning. It was twisted BOTH ways. I had £88-worth of firewood. That's the only good thing going for idigbo - it's cheap.

I was subsequently asked to do one of those large glazed areas on a barn conversion and the customer wanted idigbo. After that last experience I insisted they supply the timber. I gave them two 3.5 metre lengths of 100 x 50 to replace, again, bent BOTH ways. That stuff hadn't been machined and so the timber merchant had it back, after an argument. It had been laid on sticks in my wood loft for just a week.

Mention idigbo to me now and you won't see me for sawdust!

Yet there are guys out there who swear by the stuff.

There's a postscript to that door story. Having told my son to tell that estate manager where to put idigbo the job was given to a local joiner (incidentally, I'm in Shropshire, the door was going to an estate in Devon) who apparently called me a prat for refusing to do it in idigbo. Guess what happened?

Title: Re: Timber carcassing sizes
Post by Zambezi on Apr 16^th, 2009, 11:35am

I have never heard of Idigbo?! Hardly surprising coz I is a spark ;D It sounds like a tropical disease.

Title: Re: Timber carcassing sizes
Post by Joiner on Apr 16^th, 2009, 6:23pm

Keep it like that Zam, it's not worth the doubtful savings.

Title: Re: Timber carcassing sizes
Post by JerryD on Apr 16^th, 2009, 10:02pm

Doesn't Rolf Harris play an Idigbo?

Title: Re: Timber carcassing sizes
Post by Joiner on Apr 17^th, 2009, 8:22am

Nah, it's what Jake's middle leg was made of though!