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https://www.askthetrades.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl DIY Forum >> Carpentry Questions >> Duplex bars https://www.askthetrades.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1244565596 Message started by Joiner on Jun 9^th, 2009, 5:39pm

Title: Duplex bars
Post by Joiner on Jun 9^th, 2009, 5:39pm

No, this isn't about wierd meeting venues for ac/dc couples, so cool down. >:(

Walked away from a big job yesterday because they were insisting on having duplex bars to create 6-pane casements. Granted, they would have looked fine aesthetically, but if you stick them so that they don't come off (and there are various schools of thought on the relative merits of silicone and double-sided tape, I prefer the tape), if the unit fails - and some manufacturers now are only guaranteeing them for five years - then the bars get destroyed in their removal and you then have to make a complete new set to match. You've also got the hassle of having to provide a template or temporarily board up and use the old unit for the manufacturer to correctly align the separator bars to match the existing.

And that last point is problematic because even the best unit manufacturers can get the positioning wrong by a couple of mil and that looks bloody awful because you can't hide the discrepancy, the manufacturer insisting on their right to claim that as a manufacturing tolerance!

All that and you only get a replacement unit, no one's paying for your time because the warranty is down to you.

I've only ever used duplex bars once, on a door. It looked great but I swore then that I'd never do it again.

At yesterday's meeting I showed them drawings of alternative fenestrations, still totally 'in character' with the Edwardian building, using standard bars, but they were insistent on duplex despite all the potential problems - and they'd recently been told by a neighbour that theirs had fallen off when they cleaned the windows. There was a certain irony there because when I first surveyed the job earlier in the year and they said they wanted duplex like the neighbour's, I'd said then that they had a tendency to come off but the neighbour had said, then, that he'd had no problems.

So? What's your experience?

Title: Re: Duplex bars
Post by TIMBA-WOLF on Jun 9^th, 2009, 11:19pm

I would not entertain it either!!

Title: Re: Duplex bars
Post by woodsmith on Jun 10^th, 2009, 7:33am

I've never used them except when I have changed a double glazed unit that had them fitted. They are a damn pain and unless they line up perfectly look dire. Well I think they look pretty poor in the first place. I don't like false things and Duplex bars are probably my second worse false thing invented ;)

I know what you mean about glaziers, the last dg units I ordered for some reason all came 3mm oversize >:(

Title: Re: Duplex bars
Post by Joiner on Jun 10^th, 2009, 9:54am

This is the frontage of the property. You'll appreciate the difficulty in matching the existing with anything other than duplex bars because multi-paned double-glazed windows can look wrong using standard glazing bars, although the sample drawings I showed them had a moulding that gives a narrow sightline which, with six panes, actually looked OK to me. (Lucky with the six panes because it certainly wouldn't have worked on eight.)

It was big job and I let it go reluctantly. Originally 13 windows and the door, they now want another two windows and a French window in what will become the entrance to a 'barn style' kitchen extension, plus a fully fitted office/snug.

A lovely couple and the finances were sound, but can you imagine the problems of failed units with duplex bars in a place this size?

I think the prices they'll get from other companies might bring them back for another look at the alternative, but I'm not holding my breath.

Title: Re: Duplex bars
Post by Joiner on Jun 10^th, 2009, 10:06am

Incidentally woodie, I now insist on comparing my tape with the glaziers, ensuring that they use a Stanley or one that 'calibrates' with mine over a metre and increments up to.

If I buy a non-Stanley tape I always calibrate it with mine so that all the tapes around the shop are saying the same thing.

Similar experience to you a while back. Critical because the rebates on the old sashes were just a 1/4". The glass was out by an eighth (3mm) and when I checked back at the glaziers someone had 'borrowed' the lad's and he'd gone into the shop and picked one of those cheapies off the counter. It was out by miles. He just gave me one of those blank looks.

As far as double-glazing goes, I had shaped units made for the gable end of an extension and they were too big by 50mm. I phoned my usually reliable glass supplier and he knew instantly what had happened. Apparently he supplies the manufacturer with "blank" sizes which the computer then uses to cut the blanks which are then cut to size in a second cutting process. Unfortunately that second operation didn't happen because the largely east-European workforce hadn't read the worksheets properly, not their first language, see.

These things are sent to try us. :'(

Title: Re: Duplex bars
Post by Joiner on Jun 10^th, 2009, 10:10am

And I'm stuck at home doing 'paperwork' because the wood I ordered laast week - which was supposed to be delivered to the merchants on Friday - and which I went in Saturday to collect because it was quicker only to be told it wouldn't be in until today - and when I phoned yesterday to find out what time it was coming in today I was told it wouldn't now be coming in until tomorrow (Thursday).

I'll be working all this weekend and 12 hour days for the next two weeks to make up the 'lost' three days because all the other jobs on the schedule are the type that, once started, have to be finished.

Title: Re: Duplex bars
Post by Joiner on Jun 10^th, 2009, 11:01am

I've moved this onto the Trade section.

Title: Re: Duplex bars
Post by woodsmith on Jul 7^th, 2009, 9:38am

I went to a job on Saturday, they had asked me to quote for new windows throughout a couple of years ago but went the PVC route in the end. A lovely old cottage too, a travesty, but I couldn't fail to notce that on the south and west side of the house all the stick on glazing bars have moved, some by as much as 20mm. Looks a complete mess. She said the firm were going to come back and sort it, at least I wasn't asked to do it.

Title: Re: Duplex bars
Post by Zambezi on Jul 7^th, 2009, 9:52am

woodsmith wrote on Jul 7^th, 2009, 9:38am:

I find they don't move if you screw them to the glass [smiley=rotfl.gif]

Title: Re: Duplex bars
Post by TIMBA-WOLF on Jul 7^th, 2009, 10:01am

no ZAM, 4" stainles steel air nails are Best!!!! [smiley=wacky.gif]

Title: Re: Duplex bars
Post by Zambezi on Jul 7^th, 2009, 10:03am

TIMBA-WOLF wrote on Jul 7^th, 2009, 10:01am:

no ZAM, 4" stainles steel air nails are Best!!!! [smiley=wacky.gif]

I guess you are right because you could use them to hang your laundry on in the house ;)

Title: Re: Duplex bars
Post by TIMBA-WOLF on Jul 7^th, 2009, 10:05am

there you go then 2 fixes for the price of one!!

Title: Re: Duplex bars
Post by Joiner on Jul 7^th, 2009, 6:37pm

Just another upvc innovation that's proved worthless with time.

Title: Re: Duplex bars
Post by Joiner on Sep 5^th, 2009, 11:49am

An update on that property...

I was asked to make fold-away shutters for two rooms and called in earlier in the week to discuss them. She was full of apologies and said they'd have to postpone the shutters because the builders had just (that very morning) discovered extensive dry rot in that left hand 'wing'. They'd already stripped back the plaster in the downstairs room and you could see the stuff winding its way up through to upstairs.

I said that swear words were usually of four letters, but that in the construction industry there were two three lettered words which were probably the most offensive you could ever hear: "dry" and "rot".

She was a bit upset!

Nice couple, they don't deserve this.

Title: Re: Duplex bars
Post by woodsmith on Sep 5^th, 2009, 12:10pm

Sounds a nightmare :(

Title: Re: Duplex bars
Post by Joiner on Sep 6^th, 2009, 8:48am

She had that "lost" look on her face. Not a lot you can say.