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https://www.askthetrades.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl DIY Forum >> Painting, Decorating & Tiling Questions >> PVA & tiling https://www.askthetrades.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1305989882 Message started by Twobarrows on May 21^st, 2011, 3:58pm

Title: PVA & tiling
Post by Twobarrows on May 21^st, 2011, 3:58pm

I'm sure there was an old post on here with some excellent info on why not to use PVA on surfaces to be tiled, I think it was by the mudster? I can't seem to find it, does anyone have a link to it please?
Cheers.........

Title: Re: PVA & tiling
Post by The_Trician on May 22^nd, 2011, 12:35pm

Check out this link -

http://www.diyuniverse.com/tiling/70-pva

Title: Re: PVA & tiling
Post by Twobarrows on May 24^th, 2011, 7:22am

Thanks for that, but the info I was looking for was quite detailed. I just Googled and found it, so I'll post it here anyhow:

Full credit, as I copied the info without the Mudsters permission:

This article has been written by Alan at AT Stone who is a Professional Tiling contractor, He now mainly specialise in natural products but over the years He stuck up (or down) every type of tile there is.

God asks Alan to do his tiling, Alan does it if he can find time!

Quote:

A while ago I wrote a post for another forum which explained the reasons behind not using PVA as a tiling primer, it is posted below for your information, I've been asked to copy it to various other forums and thought it might be useful here also. I hope it is of some help.

Oh and if you do require a primer then use one suitable for the adhesive you are using, such as BAL APD or Ardion 51.

I'm a professional tiling contractor, I now mainly specialise in natural products but over the years I've stuck up (or down) every type of tile there is.

I have to give guarantees for my work (many of these projects are commercial such as sports centre showers and changing rooms). For me to be able to give guarantees I need to follow strictly the specification of the adhesive manufacturers.

Ardex, BAL and Nicobond are the three suppliers I use most. Their products are similar in many respects, sometimes one will make products the other don't, and I also find some of there products more useful in different applications. All three of them have one thing in common, they all specifiy that under no circumstances may PVA be used before using any of their adhesives. If you do all guarantees are void.

OK why then? Well I asked this question to Ardex when I once had problem, I'd tiled a bathroom that had been constructed in 25mm Marine ply. Thinking he was doing the right thing, the builder got his guys to seal the ply with unibond PVA...I wasn't aware of this.

I tiled it and 6 months later every single tile fell off the ply, the adhesive solidly stuck to the tile but came clean a whistle off the ply.

We had Ardex Technical down to the site to compile a report, the basis of which was it's the PVA that causes the problem.

When you treat a surface with PVA it partly soaks in and parlty sits on the surface of the substrate much in the same way as wallpaper paste.

If PVA gets wet it becomes slightly live again, it doesn't completely return to it's liquid state but it becomes sticky.

When you spread tile adhesive onto the wall, the water in the adhesive makes the PVA live and stops the adhesive from penetrating the substrate and providing a mechanical grip. Basically your tiles, grout and adhesive are being held to the wall by a thin layer of PVA.

Most tile adhesive works by crystalising when it sets (some are slightly different such as epoxy based ones) but generally they all work the same way. Once the adhesive starts to set crystals from and expand into any imperfections in the substrate surface (at a microscopic level) to create a grip. PVA stops this process by creating a barrier between the substrate and the tile adhesive.

Ok so whats the difference between this and Ardex or BAL primer, well basically the tile manufacturers primers soak right in to the substrate and stop the sponge like "draw "effect but they don't coat the surface in any way, they are an impregnator as opposed to a barrier.

I hope this clears up any misunderstandings.

Title: Re: PVA & tiling
Post by CWatters on May 24^th, 2011, 8:35am

Just to add that priming isnt allways required. Last time I looked at one of the BAL guides it said not to prime plywood before using the particular adhesive I was interested in.

Title: Re: PVA & tiling
Post by big_all on May 24^th, 2011, 11:26am

yep he lives a few miles from me supplied the stone for my bathroom floor
hes a good lad mention big all and get thrown out lol

http://www.atstone.co.uk/aboutus.htm

Title: Re: PVA & tiling
Post by Twobarrows on May 24^th, 2011, 12:57pm

CWatters wrote on May 24^th, 2011, 8:35am:

Just to add that priming isnt allways required. Last time I looked at one of the BAL guides it said not to prime plywood before using the particular adhesive I was interested in.

And the BAL helpline is terrific, I called one Saturday afternoon knowing there would be no-one there. Not only was the phone answered, but the guy was really switched on and knew his stuff. Well impressed! I just wish BAL gear wasn't so bloody expensive!

Title: Re: PVA & tiling
Post by TIMBA-WOLF on May 24^th, 2011, 7:58pm

Obviously it's expensive to pay for SATURDAY overtime for the Help Desk..LOL!!! ;D

Title: Re: PVA & tiling
Post by Lectrician on May 25^th, 2011, 6:49am

Makes a change for someone to answer at a weekend!

We do planned work on Saturdays in offices/factories etc, and you quite often see some staff in working.....ignoring the phones!