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All sludged up? (Read 9435 times)
londonman
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All sludged up?
Sep 18th, 2010, 1:43pm
 
I have four Acova Striane radiators on a circuit that is the farthest from the pump/boiler. They've always struggled to get really warm and which I'd put down to my bad balancing. Not any more.

I've put some Sentinel X400 in the system and have turned off all other rads apart from these four. Turned on the heating, whacked the pump up to its' highest and waited. Only one of them actually gets vaguely hot.  So...if I turn off the other three and let it 'cook' for a few hours, will the sludge remover gradually work its' way through?

I'm kind of struggling to understand quite how it will do this if a lot of the fine pipes in the rad are blocked.  Removing the rad (and its' partner) in one room to flush it out is really a last resort.   White carpet in the room.

So I guess my question is how long should I wait for the sludge remover to work - if indeed it ever will?
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londonman
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Re: All sludged up?
Reply #1 - Sep 18th, 2010, 5:29pm
 
Update

Turning off three out of the four, the rad eventually gets warmish...nowhere near as hot as normal rads elsewhere in the house.  Turn that rad off and another one of the four on and the same scenario.  Repeated for the remaining two. With all four rads on, they all are tepid.  The temperature of the return pipe at the boiler is hardly warm.  Certainly I can comfortably hold it.

Is this pointing to a blockage in the main 15mm pipe?
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thescruff
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Re: All sludged up?
Reply #2 - Sep 19th, 2010, 1:59am
 
Probably all undersized.

What speed is the pump on. And what size are the pipes.

In fact information about the system would help.
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londonman
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Re: All sludged up?
Reply #3 - Sep 19th, 2010, 5:52am
 
...

Rad A gets hot.  So too do all the other rads in the house (not shown).

So this morning, fired up the system from cold. Rad A and all others off. Rads B > E trvs off (have checked plunger is free to move and in open position), all lockshields fully open. Started pump and boiler. Went up into loft to watch level in F&E tank. Level in tank gradually rose (as water heated up presumably),  No sign of rads heating up. Lots of noise from the loft. Went up to check to see pumping over.  

Turn on some of the other working rads and pumping over stops.

So this suggests to me a major blockage in the 15mm pipe (flow or return?) between Rad A and Rads B>E?  But don't understand why pumping over should occur since the vent is on the negative pressure side of the pump.  Unless the pump is fighting against a blockage and one can get back pressure in the pump?
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« Last Edit: Sep 19th, 2010, 11:43am by londonman »  

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londonman
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Re: All sludged up?
Reply #4 - Sep 19th, 2010, 11:39am
 
Test 1 - is the return pipe clear ?

OK... there is a drain cock under Rad E.  Fed in mains water and I could hear it flow back down the return.  Ergo return pipe is clear.

test 2 - is the flow pipe clear ?

I shut off the lockshield and TRV in E and connected mains water into the bleed vent.  Opened up the TRV and heard no water flow. Since rads B, C and D are all shut off, sort of suggests a blockage in the flow to at least rads D and E.

Went upstairs and opened the TRV on D. Then heard water flow and deduce the path is Rad E > Rad E trv > Rad D trv > through rad D and out through rad D lockshield ( ie into the return which we know is clear).  

But rad E will eventually get tepid...with every other rad off. So this suggests some tiny flow?  So would running the ch system through this tiny flow gradually desludge it?
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« Last Edit: Sep 19th, 2010, 12:55pm by londonman »  

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londonman
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Re: All sludged up?
Reply #5 - Sep 19th, 2010, 12:59pm
 
So now I am (a) totally confused and (b) fed up.

Left the system running with rads B > E open. Rad B got tolerably warm. If I held my hand on it for a minute then it was starting to get uncomfortable.  So this turns on its' head my earlier conclusion that the flow to rads B > E was blocked.

OK...turned off Rad B hoping to encourage flow through C, D and E.  All that happened was that the pump starting sounding as if it was churning the water against a resistance...which it clearly is since none of them got anywhere near warm...although yesterday I managed to coax a few degrees out of them.

I have run out of ideas.  Time for a professional ?
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Re: All sludged up?
Reply #6 - Sep 20th, 2010, 12:02pm
 
How many more rads, (not shown)

I would expect a blockage E.

Take the radiator off and blast the mains down each pipe.

The pumping over would probably been the boiler boiling with no circulation.
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londonman
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Re: All sludged up?
Reply #7 - Sep 20th, 2010, 12:15pm
 
Bloody hell...you're good, mate !

In between posts I took off D and E and did what you suggested.  Loads of black crud came out..well, 1/4 cup a a guess. No idea if that is normal or not.  These are low-volume rads with narrow pipes so that can't be good.  gave the rads a lot of shaking, swirling, flushing until it ran clean but reckon there may still be some residual.

Feeling optimistic, I reconnected and hoped for the heat to come blasting out. It did not.  The rad got warmer than it has in the past.  Left B on all night in the hope that it would improve.  NB this was the only rad ON. All others turned off.  made damn all difference.  I reckon that sludge remover is a con. I can't see how it can possible work if the pipe is blocked good and proper.

So I've hired a power flush...should be here tomorrow.  And I'm going to fit a MagnaClean.

Oh yes..total of 17 rads ..all low volume.  This type  http://www.diy.com/diy/jsp/bq/nav.jsp?action=detail&fh_secondid=9271408&ecamp=tr...
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Re: All sludged up?
Reply #8 - Sep 20th, 2010, 4:15pm
 
Are you getting the flusher with the magnet filter in.
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londonman
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Re: All sludged up?
Reply #9 - Sep 21st, 2010, 7:35pm
 
No, it's a Kamco.  I'm fitting a MagnaClean which is on order.  Any tips on using a Power Flush.  Rads B to E are stubbornly refusing to open up.  I know that D and E are pretty free as I removed them and flushed them out and the water flows OK.

It seems to me that if the 15mm pipe is blocked then no amount of power flushing is going to shift it.
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« Last Edit: Sep 21st, 2010, 7:37pm by londonman »  

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Re: All sludged up?
Reply #10 - Sep 22nd, 2010, 5:36am
 
If the mains don't shift it you could have problems, although tapping the pipes with a rubber hammer may shift something.

To flush with the machine you shut all the rads and open them one at a time, reversing the flow every so often.

It probably has instructions anyway.

Are you sure you have a flow through the TRV's, bouncing a hammer on the pin gently can release the pins when they're stuck.
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londonman
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Re: All sludged up?
Reply #11 - Sep 22nd, 2010, 7:00pm
 
Some progress and a lot of steps backward.  Mid-morning the powerflush threw one of it's main pipes and flooded the utility room with cleaning fluid...fortunately I'm using Sentinel X800 which they told me was citric acid based and so a good wash would be sufficient.

I believe I have three problems.

suspect blockage between rad B and C

suspect blockage in feed to D and E from the junction where it splits to B and C

Definitely known major as in terminal blockage of the flow from rad A to these four.  The pipe has to be replaced, it is so bad.  And to be honest, I reckon powerflushing and all these chemicals is a con.  Sounds good but seems to do damn all.
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Re: All sludged up?
Reply #12 - Sep 30th, 2010, 6:50pm
 
Are you able to drain down and cut into the flow and retun pipework after rad A in your drawing?  Connect a hose pipe (make sure its a good connection) to each of the pipes, run the other end of one of the hoses to a drain and the other to outside tap.  Close all of the rads off except one and run mains through the pipework this will show whether you have blockage in pipework.  Once you have it running through the pipework you can then work your way round the other rads tapping them with a non marking rubber mallet or such.

As has already been said, make sure those TRVs are working first or you are wasting your time.

As you have microbore, is there a manifold somewhere?
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« Last Edit: Sep 30th, 2010, 6:51pm by greg »  
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londonman
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Re: All sludged up?
Reply #13 - Sep 30th, 2010, 10:26pm
 
Just to update. I replaced half of the 15mm pipe (not microbore!!) from Rad A to the others. The rest would need taking up the fitted carpets etc.  Magnetite seems to love sitting in plastic pipe but not copper.  Used a long piece of curtain wire to ease through the magnetite in the remaining half.  

Also had problems downstairs with a couple of rads (immediately below Rad B). Used the curtain wire dodge again and this time (as it was open joists down to the earth) just let some water flush it all out.

Ran the power flush...all the rads got warm (eventually...think that I might have to (if SWMBO agrees) remove rad B and C.

Powerflush sprang its' hose again. Discovered that the muppet in the hire shop had wrapped black slippery duck tape around the ferrules. Thus ensuring a perfect sliding joint...slippery duct tape against hose.  Got showered, face full, some splashed in my eyes, elm surrounds wrecked.  In discussion regarding compensation.

Following a prompt by The Scruff, I took out the central magnet part of the MagnaClean and let it dangle in the water of the powerflush. Within seconds it had acquire black magnetite.

So cut a long long story short...system up and running ..although a couple of rads still reluctant to heat up fully. Will give them a stern talking to tomorrow.

Thank for the advice and suggestions, guys.
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londonman
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Re: All sludged up?
Reply #14 - Nov 11th, 2010, 10:17pm
 
Just to give an update, have heard from the solicitor representing this well-known chain of builders merchants. They are now denying that there was ever any black duct tape on the bloody connectors...the lying bastards.  

Luckily I have an independent witness and so I'll be taking the f***ers to court.  When I win I will name and shame.
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