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Surface for tiling... (Read 9416 times)
wotamess
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Surface for tiling...
Aug 22nd, 2005, 8:15pm
 
..have just plastered a large damaged area in bathroom with 2 layers of bonding coat...total thickness is about 20mm...will it be ok to tile direct onto this or is a skim coat of plaster advisable?
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HandyJon
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Re: Surface for tiling...
Reply #1 - Aug 23rd, 2005, 1:22pm
 
I've been advised in the past not to tile direct onto bonding but to skim before tiling - something to do with the bonding having more suction then the tile adhesive is designed for. And don't use PVA unless explicity directed to do so by the tile adhesive's instructions.
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jasonB
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Re: Surface for tiling...
Reply #2 - Aug 23rd, 2005, 5:01pm
 
As HJ says the bonding will suck the moisture out of the adhesive very quickly which will affect the bond & setting.

Also if your bonding is not nice and flat you will have more difficulty tiling and most premixed adhesives have an optimum bed thickness.

Give it a skim, does not have to be a 100% perfect finish. And make sure the whole plaster job has dried out before tiling, not just the surface.

Jason
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JerryD
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Re: Surface for tiling...
Reply #3 - Aug 23rd, 2005, 10:16pm
 
And even after skimming, you should seal the new plaster with the correct primer as recommended by the tile adhesive manufacturer.

Do not seal with PVA.

(or varnish  Roll Eyes)
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mjc
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Re: Surface for tiling...
Reply #4 - Aug 23rd, 2005, 11:34pm
 
What's the problem with sealing with PVA?

Martin
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JerryD
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Re: Surface for tiling...
Reply #5 - Aug 24th, 2005, 12:17am
 
There have been problems with pva under tile adhesive.  There was a good link somewhere (I can't find it at the moment) where a someone explained clearly the difference between pva and tile adhesive primer.

Basically the pva 'knocks up' again when wetted by the tile adhesive and also pva seals the plaster in a different way to the primer.  The primer allows the tile adhesive to grip the wall surface whereas with pva the tile adhesive can only grip the pva.

PVA isn't water resistant so can fail if subjected to dampness.

I'll try and find that link but in the meantime here's another link to the tiling forum where this has been discussed. (the fifth or sixth post down starts the topic)

http://www.tileforums.com/index.php?s=c09b3f4b72bb41b8e4b216d36d1bf83d&showtopic...
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« Last Edit: Aug 24th, 2005, 12:27am by JerryD »  
 
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JerryD
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Re: Surface for tiling...
Reply #6 - Aug 24th, 2005, 12:26am
 
OK, I've found it.  Here's the info:

I took a look at the webstie you linked, this sadly is the misinformation I'm faced with on a daily basis.

I should expand on who I am and why I appear to hate PVA so much!

I'm a professional tiling contractor, I now mainly specialise in natural products but over the years I've stuck up (or down) every type of tile there is.

I have to give guarantees for my work (many of these projects are commercial such as sports centre showers and changing rooms). For me to be able to give guarantees I need to follow strictly the specification of the adhesive manufacturers.

Ardex, BAL and Nicobond are the three suppliers I use most. Their products are similar in many respects, sometimes one will make products the other don't, and I also find some of there products more useful in different applications. All three of them have one thing in common, they all specifiy that under no circumstances may PVA be used before using any of their adhesives. If you do all guarantees are void.

OK why then? Well I asked this question to Ardex when I once had problem, I'd tiled a bathroom that had been constructed in 25mm Marine ply. Thinking he was doing the right thing, the builder got his guys to seal the ply with unibond PVA...I wasn't aware of this.

I tiled it and 6 months later every single tile fell off the ply, the adhesive solidly stuck to the tile but came clean a whistle off the ply.

We had Ardex Technical down to the site to compile a report, the basis of which was it's the PVA that causes the problem.

When you treat a surface with PVA it partly soaks in and parlty sits on the surface of the substrate much in the same way as wallpaper paste.

If PVA gets wet it becomes slightly live again, it doesn't completely return to it's liquid state but it becomes sticky.

When you spread tile adhesive onto the wall, the water in the adhesive makes the PVA live and stops the adhesive from penetrating the substrate and providing a mechanical grip. Basically your tiles, grout and adhesive are being held to the wall by a thin layer of PVA.

Most tile adhesive works by crystalising when it sets (some are slightly different such as epoxy based ones) but generally they all work the same way. Once the adhesive starts to set crystals from and expand into any imperfections in the substrate surface (at a microscopic level) to create a grip. PVA stops this process by creating a barrier between the substrate and the tile adhesive.

Ok so whats the difference between this and Ardex or BAL primer, well basically the tile manufacturers primers soak right in to the substrate and stop the sponge like "draw "effect but they don't coat the surface in any way, they are an impregnator as opposed to a barrier.

I hope this clears up any misunderstandings.


There you have it  Smiley
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jasonB
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Re: Surface for tiling...
Reply #7 - Aug 24th, 2005, 7:56am
 
Good old Mudster Smiley

jASON
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mjc
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Re: Surface for tiling...
Reply #8 - Aug 24th, 2005, 8:32pm
 
Thanks for that Jerry.

Martin
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sailfishoney
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Re: Surface for tiling...
Reply #9 - Aug 28th, 2005, 7:57am
 
what do you'all comsider pva. is it the drywall mud like is used over here. if that is the case I never tile over  that. i perfer plain board, and if it is in the shower area  it needs to be cement board so it is water proofed. no plaster no tape. no nothing.lol
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« Last Edit: Aug 28th, 2005, 7:58am by sailfishoney »  
 
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JerryD
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Re: Surface for tiling...
Reply #10 - Aug 28th, 2005, 8:29am
 
...
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santacruz
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Re: Surface for tiling...
Reply #11 - Aug 28th, 2005, 8:36am
 
It aint red, white and bue for no reason - WONDERFUL stuff it is
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JerryD
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Re: Surface for tiling...
Reply #12 - Aug 28th, 2005, 8:42am
 
Makes ya proud to be British  Grin
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jasonB
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Re: Surface for tiling...
Reply #13 - Aug 28th, 2005, 8:50am
 
At least we don't fill our drywall joints with "mud" has a totally different meaning over here, though I have worked on a few oldhouses with wottle & daub  Wink

Jason
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sailfishoney
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Re: Surface for tiling...
Reply #14 - Oct 11th, 2005, 4:09am
 
It does sound bad putting mud on the walls doesn't it. I would have to hurt some one if they put mud on my walls.lol
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sailfishoney
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Re: Surface for tiling...
Reply #15 - Oct 11th, 2005, 4:20am
 
Question. Don't you have durrock over there? cement board. for a normal shower it takes about  5 boards  3x 5 sheets $50 the cost and attach tile to durrock with mastic(white glue).Thats all you need for a perfect water tight shower wall. well for just the walls anyway. I never use anything but that. we have a product called red bond. goes on pink drys red. is this similar to pvc. you can put red bond on and spread it to the entire botton of a card board box and it would be completly water tight. great stuff
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jasonB
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Re: Surface for tiling...
Reply #16 - Oct 11th, 2005, 7:51am
 
Our equivalent is "Aquapanel", "Wediboard" or "Hardibacker" these are water resistant boards made up uf cement with a fibreglass mesh for strength (wedi has a PU core)

These will give a WATER-RESISTANT wall not WATERPROOF, for total watertightness the wall should be tanked with a tanking system. Is your Durrock totally waterproof?

Jason
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