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Increasing capacity of garage electrics (Read 8110 times)
Charlie C
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Increasing capacity of garage electrics
Feb 2nd, 2012, 10:40pm
 
Hi - this is my first post, and I would be grateful if anyone can please advise me on this.

Firstly, whilst I have a reasonable electrical knowledge I am NOT a sparkie, and I would not attempt to do the work I am describing below myself! However, I would like to know if what I want to do is possible  as if not, I appreciate the costs (replacing external cable / upgrading CU's etc.) could increase hugely.

My garage currently has its own CU, wired into the main house CU via 2.5mmX3 armoured cable (BS5467). The MCB in the house CU that it is wired into is rated 16A. The garage CU has a master switch (DP) rated 63A (this seems excessive? Although I appreciate probably not actually a problem) with the socket MCB 16A and the lighting 6A. I understand that the total maximum draw in the garage is therefore 16A, limited by the 16A rating of the MCB in the house.

My main question is this. From the tables I have seen on-line, that 2.5mmX3 cable should be capable of carrying a load of over 30A. Therefore, could the MCB in the house CU be up-rated from its current 16A to 32A, and the socket MCB in the garage CU then from its current 16A to 25A (or even 32A)? I appreciate I will need to check the cable from the garage CU to the sockets is sufficiently rated for this higher power. My concern is whether I have correctly understood that the 2.5mmX3 armoured cable can take this higher current?

On the assumption I CAN do this, some subsidiary questions:

My main house CU main switch is rated 100A (standard, I believe). The total of the individual MCB's is already 98A. From what I have read I THINK that it is not a problem for the total MCB value to exceed the switch value so long as the actual draw does not exceed 100A - is this correct?

The current MCB in the house CU that runs to the garage CU is not connected through the main RCD (correct, I believe) but there is ALSO (I do not think) no RCD in the garage CU. I understand this is INcorrect - is that right? How serious is this? For any garden or power tools I would always use a plug-in RCD as protection but is this a matter of law? I BELIEVE (but am not sure) the garage CU installation was a professional job.

Finally, with my current arrangement,  am surprised that the socket MCB in the garage CU and/or the MCB in the house CU has not tripped due to over-load. I have a total of 3700W (16.1A) of heating alone plugged into the scokets, plus (when they are all on - which they have been) at least 500W (over another 2A) of lighting spread over the lighting MCB and socket MCB (but all of course going through the overall 16A MCB in the house CU, of course) plus sundries totalling at LEAST another 250W. PLUS, I have ALSO run a camping kettle (another 650W) in there WHILST the heating is all on (and I mean actually heating, not "on" but the heating elements off due to internal thermostatic control) - this all adds up to AT LEAST a 21A draw from a MCB rated just 16A. Does this indicate a problem with the MCB (or perhaps MCBs - plural) and further, if itself, does this indicate the 3X2.5mm cable is indeed capable of supplying higher levels of current (or have I just been lucky thus far to "get away with it")?.
The MCB's definitely do work as when turning on 3 CRT computer monitors at once from the same switch (i.e. they are all in the same 4 way adaptor and when switching that on from the wall, with the individual units already on), the garage socket MCB AND the house MCB BOTH trip, but they are fine when the monitors are turned on individually, presumably due to high initial draw which when 3 are turned on together?

Apologies for the length, any assistance appreciated! Many thanks.
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Re: Increasing capacity of garage electrics
Reply #1 - Feb 3rd, 2012, 6:36am
 
2.5mm SWA can safely handle around 40amps if it is buried direct in the ground HOWEVER, IT CAN ONLY HANDLE AROUND 28AMPS WHERE SURFACE CLIPPED!

You are bound to have it surface clipped either end of the run.

Does your SWA run directly back to the house CU, or does it terminate outside and then run in standard twin and earth cable to the CU?  In that case you are limited to the rating of the twin and earth in any case.

You could get away with fitting a 25amp MCB in the house CU, although not all manufacturers produce these for their boards.  You could upgrade the 16amp breaker in the garage CU to a 20.

A 16amp breaker will take several amps of over current for quite a sustained period before tripping (google current curves).
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Re: Increasing capacity of garage electrics
Reply #2 - Feb 3rd, 2012, 8:46am
 
I think if this was a new installation an RCD would be required. The regs have changed over the years so it was probably ok when installed. Changes to the regs aren't usually retrospective until you change the installation for other reasons.

I take it the garage isn't a very long way from the house?

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Charlie C
Re: Increasing capacity of garage electrics
Reply #3 - Feb 3rd, 2012, 9:04am
 
Thanks so much for the replies. They are both very helpful.

I was WRONG about the lack of RCD protection. Whilst the link into the main house CU is not through the master RCD, the MCB itself is in fact a RCBO rated 16A. However, I have now checked and it seems Hager do not make a RCBO rated 25A and so what I would now like to do is install a 25A standard MCB in the main house CU (which is available) and put a 20A RCBO in the garage CU for the sockets - this should be OK (and legally compliant) shouldn't it?

I had not realised until I started researching and posting on this forum how much this is to all this - very interesting and very grateful for the advice! When I know what I want to do and think I can do I will get a sparkie out to quote for it all.

My garage is detached but right next to my house - however the cable has to run all the way around the house, a distance of 15-20m. The cable is indeed clipped to the wall of the house for almost its entire length, and goes directly from the main house CU to the garage CU (including the internal part of the cable - which is only about 10cm as the main house CU is right next to the external wall).

Incidentally, can you please confirm my assumption that the total of all the MCB's in the main house CU MAY exceed the total switch rating (100 Amp) so long as the total draw does not exceed the switch rating (some flexibility since the vast majority of the MCB's would never be used to their maximum capacity) - the total of all the MCB's is already currently 98A.

Thanks again.
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Re: Increasing capacity of garage electrics
Reply #4 - Feb 4th, 2012, 12:30pm
 
There is no limit to the amount of MCB's you can have, and these days having more circuits than too few is preferred (for convenience when there are faults).  Having 3 or 4 ring final circuits in a property is not uncommon, and that is more than 120amp straight away.

It all boils down to "Diversity", and the regulations allow for this - The on site guide as some guidance tables on maximum permissible diversity, but you can still go beyond this.

I will give you a non domestic example.

A caravan park has a field of 8 hookup points for touring caravans.  The hookups are all rated to the standard 16amps, and fed from circuit.  If you total (8 x 16) you get 128amps.  In reality the circuit will most likely be protected by a 63amp fuse or breaker.  Diversity is applied as not everyone will be using the full 16amp at once.

As your SWA goes directly from the CU to the outbuilding, you can omit RCD protection to the SWA and use a 25amp MCB (if you can source one for your CU).  You would be better then fitting a 20amp MCB in the outbuilding, and swapping the main switch in the outbuilding CU for a 30mA RCD (25amp or larger).  Although not specifically required, assuming the lighting circuit is clipped direct/trunked etc, the lighting circuit would be better RCD protected too.  This is more of my personal preference though - nothing wrong with not providing RCD protection for it.
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Charlie C
Re: Increasing capacity of garage electrics
Reply #5 - Feb 8th, 2012, 7:01am
 
Thanks so much again for your help.

One further question if I may about the RCD protection of the garage supply - at present, as above, the RCD protection is provided by means of an RCBO in the main house CU. The suggestion above was to replace this RCBO with a standard MCB and have main CU and have main switch RCD protection in the garage CU (or possibly to have RCBO protection on the sockets MCB of the garage CU. As a further alternative, is there any reason why I cannot rely on the main RCD in the house CU (which is a split CU), and why presently is the garage CU connected to the house CU through an RCBO on the non-RCD side of the main CU rather than through a standard MCB through the protected side? Seems like unnecessary expense?

Once again, very many thanks for your help.
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Re: Increasing capacity of garage electrics
Reply #6 - Feb 8th, 2012, 8:06pm
 
Nuisance tripping

It means if you are in garage and rcbo trips you need to go back into house to reset.

if you put it onto rcd side of split load db then you also trip half the house at same time.

if you have rcd in garage then if it trips you can reset it there.

SIMPLES
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Charlie C
Re: Increasing capacity of garage electrics
Reply #7 - Feb 13th, 2012, 4:59am
 
Thanks again for all your help - very helpful indeed.
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