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Compact Flourescents (Read 13707 times)
RobS
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Compact Flourescents
Feb 3rd, 2009, 2:17am
 
I have recently had some stables built.  The electrics were installed and tested to Part P as the supply is taken from the house.  One of the circuits consists of 10 x 18W compact flourescent recessed downlighters.  The lights are IP66 and designed to be used in sofits.  The lights are switch with by either a MK Masterseal 2-way switch, a MK Masterseal Intermediate switch or a remote 2-way switch (EasySwitch).  The EasySwitch is just a relay with a pair of NC and NO contacts driven by the wireless receiver.

After the lights had been working for a couple of weeks they stopped working one by one.  So far 2 of the electronic HF ballasts have failed and in total 7 bulbs.  I have tried a mixture of Philips and Sylvania bulbs.

With 5 working when I switch, on the voltage measured between the live and neutral conductors by one of the fittings rises to 250V and then decays slowly to 230V.

Any ideas what is causing the failures?
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LSpark
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Re: Compact Flourescents
Reply #1 - Feb 3rd, 2009, 8:25pm
 
What brand is the downlights, and is the HF gear built in or attached separately? Do you know the brand of HF gear, is it definatly HF type?

Is the shed insulated, what is the ambient temperature like?

Do you know if the HF gear is pre-heat or cold-start?

Fluorescent lamps in general don't like it cold, in fact they operate at best luminous flux (light output) in a very narrow range of temperature. But certainly they don’t like it too cold, the cold will shorten their life, and switching them on and off repeatedly will shorten their life even further.

Always run your fluorescent for a minimum of 20-30mins at a time.

I presume all the wiring is correct and there are no issues?
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« Last Edit: Feb 3rd, 2009, 8:28pm by LSpark »  
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RobS
Re: Compact Flourescents
Reply #2 - Feb 4th, 2009, 12:34am
 
Thanks for the reply LS

The units are made by Illuma and the ballasts are Vossloh-Schwabe.  I have spoken to both the companies who are helpful, but haven't thought of a good reason.

The stables aren't insulated, but have a tiled roof.  They units probably see ambient so anything down to minus 5 C.

The HF ballasts have a pre-heat cycle of 1-1.5 seconds.  Sylvania suggest that the minimum temperature that their lamps are suitable to are governed by the ballast suppliers recomendation.  Vossloh-Schwabe suggest that their ballasts are Ok to minus 15 C.  Philips don't quote a minimum temperature, but suggest they are ok for externsl use.

The failures did appear temperature related, but none have failed during this week's cold spell, but only 5 are working.

Wiring I think is OK.  Both the electrician and myself have looked at it and can't see any issues.  Testing didn't show any issues.
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Re: Compact Flourescents
Reply #3 - Feb 4th, 2009, 8:21am
 
Pehaps check the earthing. I recall reading somewhere that good earthing of the metal parts of the fitting is required or higher voltages are need to get the tubes to strike.
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RobS
Re: Compact Flourescents
Reply #4 - Feb 4th, 2009, 1:09pm
 
Not on this fitting.  The "earth" wire is terminated in the connection block, but nothing connects to it.  The ballasts only have a live and neutral feed.
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Zambezi
Re: Compact Flourescents
Reply #5 - Feb 4th, 2009, 1:26pm
 
This is a long shot but could you try splitting the circuit into 2 so that you only have 5 on each? It may be inrush currents etc destroying them prematurely. I have also been told CFLs don't like the cold but you say they should be good to -15C so I guess that cancels that one out...
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Goodsparks
Re: Compact Flourescents
Reply #6 - Feb 4th, 2009, 2:12pm
 
Vossloh gear is good usually, certainly up there with Tridonic or Philips.
Could be that there is condensation forming within the control gear given the running temperature and very low ambient.

HF gear tends to be fairly resiliant, most being european has an operating voltage of 230 as opposed to the 240 we supply it with, I have had philips gear running at 250v + on a variac for a few weeks to test and all worked fine. (Didn't have any effect on consumption contrary to the information from Powerperfector)

Paul
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LSpark
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Re: Compact Flourescents
Reply #7 - Feb 4th, 2009, 9:19pm
 
Quote:
It may be inrush currents etc destroying them prematurely

It's unlikely, ballasts such as them are designed for working in reasonable numbers, certainly 10 should not be an issue. However one should not mix electromagnetic ballasts and HF type ballasts as the inrush from the former can damage the latter. But if it's all HF there shouldn't be a problem.

Quote:
Vossloh gear is good usually, certainly up there with Tridonic or Philips

VS gear is of reasonable quality, but I don't think compareable to the quality of philips "performer" range. VS is normally put into cheap fittings in my experience. Tridonic is a brand all of it's own.

Quote:
HF gear tends to be fairly resiliant, most being european has an operating voltage of 230 as opposed to the 240 we supply it with, I have had philips gear running at 250v + on a variac for a few weeks to test and all worked fine

You will do, in fact you can run many ballasts between about 198V and 250V, they have some superior electronics in them that's for sure. Very stable against mains fluctuations normally.

It sounds likely that condensation could be the problem, as you state. Maybe there are a few duff ones, it can happen with anything, but dissapointing to have more than one fail.

Rob, when the lamps go, do they appear blackened on removal? or do they glow dull purple when in the fitting?
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« Last Edit: Feb 4th, 2009, 9:39pm by LSpark »  
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sparky415
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Re: Compact Flourescents
Reply #8 - Feb 4th, 2009, 9:31pm
 
A silly idea Rob but the fittings are rated at 18w I know some lamps/fittings are interchangeable and some are not
Might just be a silly idea  Undecided
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Re: Compact Flourescents
Reply #9 - Feb 4th, 2009, 9:38pm
 
I think 18W 4-Pin has it's own set cap of G24q-2.

From information here, and for reference (4-Pin)

10 & 13W are G24q-1
18W is G24q-2
and 26W is G24q-3

2-Pin variants have different cap & pin configuration (obviously), and
the higher wattages are a different shape altogether.

It's one of them problems where you wish you could be there to see it for yourself and make a judgement!
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« Last Edit: Feb 4th, 2009, 9:40pm by LSpark »  
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Re: Compact Flourescents
Reply #10 - Feb 4th, 2009, 9:46pm
 
I know I have had some confusion in the past with compact fittings  Embarrassed
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Re: Compact Flourescents
Reply #11 - Feb 4th, 2009, 10:57pm
 
There's quite a large range of pin-based CFL's so it's not surprising.
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RobS
Re: Compact Flourescents
Reply #12 - Feb 5th, 2009, 2:03am
 
Thanks for all the replies.  I haven't seen any evidence of condensation, but will keep an eye on this.

The bulbs are a mixture of Sylvania and Philips.  I have checked with the lamp supplier and the bulb supplier that they are the correct ones (PLC G24q-2 18W 4 pin).

When the bulbs fail they just stop working.  I can't remeber seeing any fail when lit.  When they fail they eitherb just don't light up or there is an orange glow for a few seconds before going out.  The bulbs look new when they fail - no evidence of any burning.

With the cold weather I was expecting a few more to go, but currently none have.

Rob
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Re: Compact Flourescents
Reply #13 - Feb 5th, 2009, 10:16pm
 
Strange phenomena’s.. I reckon you've got aliens coming down in the surrounding fields at night and blasting them with EM radiation  Tongue
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Re: Compact Flourescents
Reply #14 - Feb 6th, 2009, 9:29am
 
Sorry if this is stupid but .. How are you testing for failed bulbs and ballasts? Is it possible they are just failing to strike in the cold and haven't actually failed? Can you check some of the failed ballasts indoors in the warm?
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Re: Compact Flourescents
Reply #15 - Feb 6th, 2009, 11:03am
 
your all wrong, its the bloody horses lossening the lamps in the fittings!!!

(sorry)
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AS HONEST AND LOYAL AS THE TIMBER-WOLF. --VAR@*SH, DON'T YOU SWEAR AT ME!! PAL!!&&I DON'T SUFFER FROM INSANITY- I DAMNED WELL ENJOY IT!!!!!
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Zambezi
Re: Compact Flourescents
Reply #16 - Feb 6th, 2009, 11:07am
 
Have you tried lagging the cables?  Grin Grin Grin Sorry Wolf started it!
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