So the stats are meaningless for comparison anyway?

Could their scheme or the Aussie one be proposed as analternative for the UK?

[quote author=woodsmith  link=1112095253/0#1 date=1112099059]I've just fitted a utility and had to run 2 extension leads round the room rather than provide 2 extra sockets like I would have done last year.
[/quote]

My understanding is that you can continue as before just as long as you pay Building Control around £200 before you start.

[quote author=Jim Franklin  link=1112095253/0#13 date=1112470789]BAS...there is a flaw in your original post. I read it, and did some research, including talking to NZ and Aussie sparks that I know. I also spoke to my Uncle (by email) as he has lived in Auckland for the last 35 years. [/quote]
Try here instead: http://www.technicalregulator.sa.gov.au/images/pdfs/TRElec04Final.pdf

Quote:

Sorry - no - the figures are adjusted for population size....

Quote:

But death & injury rates are what are used by Govt to justify restricitions.

Quote:

But the $64,000 question, on which you and I will never agree because I insist on evidence and you go by anecdote, is is the situation severe enough to warrant intrusive legislation imposing limitations on peoples freedom of activity?

Quote:

Leaving aside the checks for criminal record, and the black-cab requirements of "the knowledge", the actual driving of a cab does not require any more skill than driving a private car.   If you wish to continue the other analogies I would say that I've never claimed that someone who'd learnt enough to be safe to do his own domestic wiring would automatically be capable of working on 3-phase or industrial or MV/HV etc, in exactly the same way that a fully qualified taxi driver is not also expected to be able to drive a bus.

Quote:

I'm having to exercise great restraint not to shout again.  You cannot base an argument for banning DIY work on the fact that some people earn their living by doing it.   The purpose of any such legislation should be to improve safety, not to distort the supply/demand situation to improve your earning potential.  

Quote:

Where is the evidence of widespread bodging?
Where is the evidence that Part P will help?
Where is the evidence, or even a intelligent belief, that banning DIY work would help? Keep it legal, and introduce a reasonable way to ensure it is safe, and you improve the chances of knowing if it's been done.

Quote:

This has absolutely nothing to do with an ego trip.  You keep trying to personalise this, and trying to move the goalposts by talking about job protection because you know that there is no evidence which supports your assertion that banning DIY work is a good thing, and in fact there is evidence which shows that it is not.

I think those are all excellent ideas.  Should also make the use of the cable design software mandatory - i.e. when the testing is done the results have to be recorded on a print-out from the design tool.

The only flaw I see with all of this is that if the ODPM were interested, and put out a consultation document, what sort of feedback do you think they'd get from NICEIC, ECA, NAPIT, AE3 () etc?

[quote author=L.Spark  link=1112095253/15#24 date=1112714281]good idea's beanzy as usual  8)

AE3 isnt a self-certification scheme so let's leave that out of it   [/quote]

Neither are most of these:

AiC Ltd
AICO Ltd
Airport Operators Association
Alan Wenham-Prosser
Anchor Trust
Approved Inspector Consultants Ltd
Architecture & Surveying Institute
Arup
Associated British Ports  East Coast
Associated British Ports  Ipswich
Associated British Ports  North East
Associated British Ports  Southampton
Associated Offices Technical Committee
Association for Environment Conscious Building
Association of Berkshire Building Control Services
Association of British Insurers
Association of British Theatre Technicians
Association of Builders Hardware Manufacturers
Association of Building Engineers
Association of Consultant Approved Inspectors
Association of Consultant Architects
Association of Consulting Engineers
Association of Manufacturers of Domestic Electrical Appliances
Association of Plumbing & Heating Contractors
Autoclaved Aerated Concrete Products Association
B&Q Warehouses
BAA Building Control Services Ltd
Bathroom Manufacturers Association
Barnado’s
BEAB
BICC Cables Ltd
Bingo Association
Blackpool Transport Services Ltd
BM TRADA Certification Ltd
Bournemouth & West Hampshire Water plc
BP Solar
Bracknell Forest Borough Council
BRCS (Building Control) Ltd
BRE Certification Ltd
BRE Housing Centre
Brick Development Association
Bristol Water plc
British Approvals for Fire Equipment
British Bathroom Council
British Board of Agrément
British Cables Association
British Chamber of Commerce
British Council for Offices
British Electrical & Allied Manufacturers Association
British Electrical Systems Association
British Fire Protection System Association
British Home Stores
British Institute of Architectural Technologists
British Non-Ferrous Metals Federation
British Plastics Federation
British Plumbing Fittings Manufacturers Association
British Property Federation
British Safety Council
British Security Industry Association
British Standards Institution
British Telecom
British Waterways
British Youth Council
BSRIA Ltd
Buckley-Lewis Partnership Ltd
Building Magazine
Builders Merchants’ Federation
Building Centre Trust
Building Control Research Group
Building Control Wales
Building Research Establishment
Building Services Journal
Building Standards Limited
Butler & Young Ltd
Cabinet Office Better Regulation Unit
Calderdale MBC
Canary Wharf Management Ltd
Carillion Specialist Services Ltd
Carrick District Council (Building Control)
CBI Building Regulations Working Group
Centre for Housing Management (Wales)
Chartered Institute of Building
Chartered Institute of Environmental Health
Chartered Institution of Building Services Engineers
Chief & Assistant Chief Fire Officers Association
Church Heritage Forum
Churches Main Committee
City & Guilds of London Institute
Civil Engineering Contractors Association
Collins, publishers of "The Complete DIY Manual" and "Wiring and Lighting"
Combined Heat and Power Association
Committee of Vice Chancellors & Principals of the Universities of England
Confederation of Construction Specialists
Construction Audit Ltd
Construction Confederation
Construction Industry Council
Construction Industry Council (Wales)
Construction Industry Training Board
Construction News
Construction Products Association
Construction Round Table
Consumer Policy Co-ordination Committee
Consumers Association, publishers of "The Which Book of Wiring and Lighting"
Copper Development Association
Corporation of Church House
Council for Aluminium in Building
Countryside Properties plc
Cowes Harbour Commission
Crown Estate Commissioners
Defence Research Agency (DERA)
Department for Culture, Media & Sport
Department for Education and Employment  Schools Premises Policy & Support Team
Department of Health
Department of the Environment & Local Government  EIRE
Department of the Environment  Northern Ireland Assembly
Department of Trade & Industry  Electrical Engineering Inspectorate
Department of Trade & Industry  Standards and Technical Regulations Division
Department of Trade & Industry  Small Business Service
Disability Rights Commission
Disability Wales
District Surveyors Association
Domus Ducting (Manufacturing) Ltd
Door & Shutter Manufacturers Association
Drivas Jonas
Durham County Council
EA Technology
Eastern Electricity
East Midlands Electricity
Electrical Contractor
Electrical Contractors’ Association
SELECT (Electrical Contractors’ Association of Scotland)
Electrical Installation Equipment Manufacturer’s Association
Electrical Review
Electrical Wholesalers Federation
Electricity Association
ELM Training Service
Engineering Council
Engineers and Managers Association
English Heritage
English Heritage  Government Historic Buildings Advisory Unit
English Partnerships
Environment Agency
Environmental Audit Committee
ERA Technology Ltd
Essex Building Surveyors Association
ESTA Building Control Group
Euralarm
Eurisol (UK Mineral Wool Association)
European Documentation Centre (University of Aberdeen)
European Intelligent Building Group
Federation of Master Builders
Federation of Small Businesses
Ferguson Bucknall Austin
Fire Brigades Union
Fire Industry Confederation
Fire Service College
Football Licensing Authority
Forestry Commission  Estate Management
Forestry Commission Forest Enterprise
Forum of Private Businesses
Fuel Industry Association
Future Energy Solutions
Gas Consumer Council
Global Energy Associates Ltd
Gloucester Harbour Trustees
Greater Manchester Passenger Transport Executive
Greenalls Group Plc
Guernsey, States of
Guide Dogs for the Blind Association
Guild of Architectural Ironmongers
Guild of Incorporated Surveyors
Guild of Master Craftsmen
Guy Shattock Associates Ltd
Gypsum Products Development Association
Hanover Housing Association
Harwich International Port Ltd
HCD Building Control Ltd
Health and Safety Commission
Health and Safety Executive  Electrical Safety Policy Division.
Health and Safety Executive  Electrical Safety and Controls Division
Health and Safety Executive, Chief Executive
Health and Safety Executive  Inspectorate of Railways
Heating and Ventilating Contractors’ Association
Heating, Ventilation and Air Conditioning Manufacturers Association
Heritage Railway Association
Heysham Port Ltd
HM Prison Service
Homebase
Home Office  Buildings & Estate Management Unit
Honourable Society of Gray’s Inn
Honourable Society of the Inner Temple
House Builder magazine
House Builders Federation
House Builders Federation (Wales)
House of Commons Environment Select Committee
Housing Association Property Mutual
Housing Corporation
Incorporated Society of Valuers & Auctioneers
Innogy Holdings
Institute of Clerks of Works of Great Britain Incorporated
Institute of Construction Management
Institute of Domestic Heating & Environmental Engineers
Institute of Healthcare Engineering & Estate Management
Institute of Historic Building Conservation
Institute of Housing
Institute of Leisure & Amenity Management
Institute of Plumbing
Institute of Quality Assurance
Institute of Trading Standards
Institution of Electrical Engineers
Institution of Fire Engineers
Institution of Gas Engineers
Institution of Incorporated Engineers
Institution of Mechanical Engineers
Institution of Structural Engineers
Invensys Building Systems UK
Jersey  Department of Planning & Building Services
JHA Ltd
John Lewis Partnership
Joint Committee on Mobility of Blind & Partially Sighted People
Joseph Rowntree Foundation
King’s Lynn Conservancy Board
Kingston Health and Safety Services
Kirklees Metropolitan Counci
Kirklees Metropolitan Council  Building Control
LABC Services
Laing Homes  South East Thames
Lambert Smith Hampton
LANTAC
LE Group
Leeds City Council  Building Control
Licensed Victuallers Trade Association
Licensed Victuallers Wales
Lift and Escalator Industry Association
Lighting Association
Lighting Industry Federation
Lloyd’s Underwriters’  Non-Marine Association Ltd
Local Government Association
Local Government Technical Advisers Group
London District Surveyors Association
London Transport
Loss Prevention Council
Matalan
Maunsell Associates
McLean Homes, North London Ltd
Metropolitan Police Building Control Section
Metway Connect
Midlands Electricity (GPU Power UK)
Ministry of Defence  Defence Estate Organisation
MLM Building Control Ltd
Modular Wiring Systems Europe Ltd
Modus
Morgan Wolff Ltd
Morgan, Graham
Mountford Pigott Partnership
Mr Self Build Community
NACOSS
Nat West Group
National Air Traffic Services Ltd
National Approval Council for Security Systems
National Assembly for Wales
National Association of Citizens Advice Bureaux
National Association of Estate Agents
National Association of Local Councils
National Association of Plumbing, Heating and Mechancial Services Contractors
National Association of Professional Inspectors and Testers
National Association of Shopfitters
National Electrotechnical Training
National Federation of Builders (Wales)
National Federation of Consumer Groups
National Federation of Residential Landlords
National Fireplace Association
National Home Improvement Council
National House Building Council
National Housing Federation
National Inspection Council for Electrical Installation Contracting
National Power plc
National Prefabricated Building Association Ltd
National Security Inspectorate
National Trust
NHBC Building Control Services Ltd
NHS Trusts via NHS Estates
Northern Electric
Nottingham Trent University
Novar ED&S
OFGEM
Office of Fair Trading
Oil Firing Technical Association for the Petroleum Industry
Oxford City Council
PACE Central Advice Unit
Passenger Transport Executive Group
Pera Information  Manufacturing Technology Group
Persimmon Plc
Philips Lighting UK
Planning Officers Society
Poole Harbour Commissioners
Prime Construction Consultants Ltd
Purcell Miller Trittow & Partners
Racecourse Association Ltd
Rail Property Ltd
Ramsgate Royal Harbour
RBC Ltd
Reader’s Digest, publishers of "The Complete DIY Manual"
Rees Bolter Architects
Residential Landlords Association
RIBA Companies Ltd  NBS Services Division
Royal Commission on the Environment and Pollution
Royal Institute of British Architects
Royal Institute of Public Health & Hygiene
Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors  Building Control Forum
Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors
Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors (Wales)
Royal National Institute for the Blind  Housing Service
Royal National Institute for the Blind  Joint Mobility Unit
Royal Society for the Promotion of Health
Royal Society of Architects in Wales
Royal Town Planning Institute
Safety Assessment Federation
Scottish Executive, Development Department
Scottish Executive, Chief Planner
Scottish and Southern Energy
Sea Containers Ports
SEEBOARD plc
Severn Trent Water
Sheffield Hallam University
Shell UK
Shelter
Shop & Display Equipment Association
Shoreham Port Authority
Slough Estates Plc
Small Business Bureau Ltd
Society of Light and Lighting
Society for the Protection of Ancient Buildings
Society of British Gas Industries
Solar Trade Association Ltd
South Western Electricity plc
Steel Construction Institute
Steel Construction Institute, Metal Framed Building Group
STMC (Building Control) Ltd
Suttle, Richard
Sutton Harbour Company
SW+H Services Limited
TACMA
T Dunwoody & Partners
Taywood Homes Ltd
Textile Services Association
Thames Power Services
Thames Water Property
The Council for Registered Gas Installers
The National Grid Company plc
Thomas Morgan & Associates
Thorn Lighting Group
Thorn Security Ltd
Timber Industry Alliance
Timber Research & Development Association
Tolley Construction Law Service
Trades Union Congress  Construction Industry Committee
Transport & General Workers Union
Trinity House Lighthouse Service
TXU Europe
Tyne & Wear PTE
Tyne, Port of Authority
UK CARES
UNISON
United Utilities
Upkeep (Trust for Training & Education in Building Maintenance)
VELUX Ltd
Vent-Axia Ltd
Warrington Fire Research Consultants Ltd
Water Heater Manufacturers Association
Water UK
Waterford Stanley Limited
Wireland Electric Ltd
Welsh Development Agency
Welsh Federation of Housing Associations
Welsh Local Government Association
Western Power Distribution
West Midlands Centre for the Built Environment
Westminster, University of
Whicheloe MacFarlane M.D.P.
Whitecroft Lighting Ltd
Wickes
Workington Port
Yarmouth (I.O.W.) Harbour Commission
Youth Hostels Association
Zurich Building Guarantees

but they were all consulted over Part P.....

BAS Wrote -

"I'm having to exercise great restraint not to shout again.  You cannot base an argument for banning DIY work on the fact that some people earn their living by doing it. The purpose of any such legislation should be to improve safety, not to distort the supply/demand situation to improve your earning potential."

I agree 100% - there are already too many vested interests in fuucking up my job without the people who supposedly represent my trade (sic) going crying to the Govt of the day to ask for yet more needless regulation, cost and red-tape.

The stark fact of the matter is; that thousands are NOT dying from accidents involving faulty fixed-wirng. For one thing,the materials used today are very fault-tolerant and thus much safer than those employed decades ago.
This doesn't make a dodgy installation safe, but it makes it much SAFER than would have normally have been the case years ago.

The whole electrical safety thing has been blown out of all sensible proportion because of the 'compensation -culture, coupled with boom in 'Heath & Safety' in this country (for all the wrong reasons), and common sense, like the proverbial baby, has been chucked out with the bathwater.

I'm VERY ANTI any more needless and costly interference in my job, be it from the bloody Govt, or from anywhere else.
As for sparkies being underpaid? Let market forces sort that one, after all, if you aren't happy with your rate for the job, then raise it, or get out and retrain to do something else. The world doesn't owe us a living.

TT

BAS...yur tal;king rubbish again..your quoted link is bogus mate..do you also sell snake oil in your spare time..

That article you linked to is for SOUTH AUSTRALIA and not Australia. There is a BIG difference.

What you have done is used Lincolnshire as a comparison to Spain...

The figures I commented on where for the ENTIRE NATION STATE of AUSTRALIA, not one of it's effing territories.

You ask about evidence for Bodged work..well 22 years in this industry fella...I am sick of the sh*t I come across, yes some is done by so called sparks, but it is amazing how many people say "Oh yeah, we had this electrician in, he did this", Yet they cannot remember his name or his phone number or anything..

LIARS ARE WHAT THEY ARE, Bodging bloody Liars

Ban, face facts, the vast majority of all DIY electrical work is shoddy.I have never claimed all of it is, and I have never claimed that all electricians are ggod at their job..some I have met make DIYers look brilliant!

But the fact is, unless the Governemtn can prove which event was caused by DIY and which by "professional" negligence, then I see no way out of this. They claim over 4000 fires a year are electrical related, and over 800 of these are fatal fires. I don't know if this figure is accurate, but these are the figures used by the government, and on the basis of this, then it should be banned..

One moron with a Gun in Dunblain killed some innocent children, very tragic and should never have happened, but banning Guns was not the solution, yet it did not stop the Government putting over 11,000 people out of a job, and making law abiding citizens give up legally owned firearms.

Do not have the cheek to say these are different, they both involve death..preventable deaths in 99.99999% of cases, why should it be one standard here, and another standard there??

Your comments about the black cabs....Unless you have a Criminal Record check, unless you do the knowledge, you cannot be a black cabbie, but the driving skill is the same..Oh come on..that is the same as saying I need no special skills to be a brain surgeon so long as I do the tests they want!!!

Electricians go to College for years, they have specialised skills that take time to learn, please do not think that because you have the intellect to change a light switch your a bloody sparky

You are ONLY an Electrician of you Possess a formally recognised qualification in Electrical Competences..till now that meant C&G 2360 part 1 and part 2 as the minimum. Now they have changed it so new sparks will be on the 2330 course, but it is the same thing.

Reading a regs book, the onsite guide, doing a 2381 or/and the 2391 DOES NOT make you an electrician..nor does reading "Nobby's Guide to DIY"

[quote author=ban-all-sheds link=board=Diy;num=1112095253;start=30#30 date=04/06/05 at 17:40:52]

I did, I thought, post a reply addressing all of your points, but either I did forget to hit [Post] or it's lost or removed.  Almost certainly the first reason.
[END QUOTE]

well i dont know what gives around here but change that to the second reason - i read the post and it was a cracking reply

i did post this yesterday but it would appear that my post (which was also showing on the site for a while) was also removed!

come on admin's whats the deal?

BAS's post was a good retort and though argumentative was was hardly unreasonable  and even if you disagree what was so bad in my confirmation that he did make the post  that you felt the need to remove it too?

i can see the need to censor certain posts and in extreeme circumstances even remove the odd one if it were say a personal and vidictive attack but i hardly see how these posts would justify removal.

i have found this site both usefull and entertaining but if this is what we can expect from this forum then i for one will gladly leave you to it.

on the other hand if your servers are that bad that they drop posts at random without any intervention then i guess that is entertainment in itself



so which is it?

[quote author=billythekid  link=1112095253/30#33 date=1112984019]Nothing showing in "Removed Content".

Course I've not been keeping up with this thread so your guess is as good as mine. lol

It is not unknown for the server to drop the odd message during cleaning/maintenance though.


btk [/quote]


Thanks for the reply Btk how bizzare

tiz a shame as BAS's post was a beut and the argument was quite entertaining but nevermind