i found something interesting on a 3 phase instal today

3P+E CE socket with 3p+n rcd

on the load side of rcd somone had decided to put a wire linking N to L1

why? i have no idea, im still trying to work out what on earth was going through their mind, wither way it musta been a hell of a bang because the steel piece of wire was looking like a bit of fusewire....

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oh and pluggy, ive been asked to wire an extention lead into the back of a socket to look neater only a few weeks ago.

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part P is wrong, there was never enough accedents/ deaths to warrent this legislation anyway. and it never would have heppend if it haddent been an mps daughter.

lets face it, if they wanted to save lives they wouldent be sending our guys to fing in pointless needless wars.

and they wouldent be letting so many immigrants dissapear into sociaty to set up gangs and stab/ mug/ murder people.


i saw a thing on tv earlyer, called  "were all criminals now" on ch 4.

it was blodey spot on, people in this country have always obeyed the law to a high extent, and held it in high regard, but the polititions are outstepping their roles, we dident elect them to make these laws, they have got it arse about tit and will find out soon when people just start to say "na....fcuk em...."

ladies and gents, the day is near

ss

[quote author=Beanzy  link=1106096531/0#14 date=1106427945]Want to be a big boy..... buy a big boys license meet the regs relevant to your operation.
Want to be a local broadcaster buy a local licesnse & meet the regs relevant to your operation.
Want to be a ham radio operator/ do minor works get a ham ops license meet the regs relevant to your operation.
Want to just use a UHF radio for personal safety purposes, do the night course & get the ticket then obey the rules.
Certain frequency use un regulated.

So if this template was re-worked for everything from electro-mega-corp down to johnny socket swapper, then we'd have a booming system of practical & useful education, supported by a proper wrist-slapping regime when relevant.

Haven't thought out any detail yet, but it would certainly ensure people realised the level to which they should be working, or the kind of jobs they should be undertaking. [/quote]

This picks up on something about the elec exams I didn't know till sometime ago. To pass you need to learn EVERYTHING from  domestic to industrial and mega-power to SELV. If you're a spark wanting to work in the domestic sector there is no point to you learning about how to maintain a street light or how to work on a sub-station, but you need to learn it to pass, then you forget about it for the rest of your life.

So the exams should be geared to sectors and you are then licensed/certified to only be able to work in that sector. Pretty much like driving licenses. Getting a driving license doesn't mean that you can drive an LGV. But you can take extra tests to do so. So you could learn basic electrics which allow work in the domestic sector, then take extra tests to do industrial/commerical.

There is nothing to stop someone with a normal driving license driving a LGV, but the law is there to penalise the person if they are found out, so most people balance the risks and benefits and don't drive LGVs on a car license. Similarly a spark with domestics could in theory work on industrial stuff, but there would be large enough penalities to make it not worthwhile. Also in the driving situation, to be able to drive a LGV for gain, the hiring company will want to see your qualifications, similarly the employer of the spark doing megapower stuff will want to see the qualifications. This could be carried down to the domestic level where where to do such work requires the production of a certificate, however this should not be necessary since the extra paperwork and hassle doesn't match the benefits in terms of safety.

Basic education is all that is necessary to at the domestic level. Enough to allow most DIYers to do the normal stuff, but also enough to allow them to know or work out when they are getting out of the depth and that calling in a certified spark is what is required. Part of the problem with DIYers doing work currently is that the education is lacking and so people think its only a case of brown to brown, blue to blue and stick the green/yellow wire somewhere. They haven't been taught that there is more to electrics than meets the eye. Something as simple like the DIY shed little leaflets being given everytime someone buys something like a CU.

Now a prat could buy a CU, get the leaflet and bin it, install the CU and get fried. But there is no way he could claim insurance or sue because he deliberately ignored the warnings. Nor should his family be able to sue for his death. This should make most people think about what they are doing even if they think that they will be ok, will they then be happy at allowing their family to suffer because they even though they knew they were flauting the rules, they still went and installed the CU.

At this stage we start getting into to the argument about whether or not government should be protecting everyone (including prats) from everything or should it expect that most people have some basic intelligence, and that trying to protect the few who don't is not cost effective nor worth the hassle of annoying everyone else.

Going off at another tangent, an example of how more government interference tends to back fire or not cost effective is with the duty of cigarettes or alchohol. Duty goes up on cigarettes so people start buying abroad and smuggling increases. To counter the loss of duty, duty is increased again and more money spent on enforcing it and the penalties increased. This stops the individuals, but it then becomes more cost effective for the big time players who make more money becasue their profit goes up each time duty is increased. The penalities don't match the crime after a few cycles since they only lose a few years of liberty and then can retire to Spain having earnt millions in the meantime. During all this more of the public's taxes have been spent on C&E's budget to counter the problem than would be earnt from legal duty if they lowered the duty and made it non-profitable to smuggle.

To go back to the education argument, an example of how a little education at little cost can save lots of lives, it with the tsunami. If people living on the coast had been taught the simple fact that if the sea recedes then run like hell for the high ground, tens of thousands of lives might have been saved, and it wouldn't have cost £2billion like the current aid effort is costing. A young British girl of ten who had learnt this at school saved the lives of the dozens of people on her beach. See http://www.nypost.com/news/worldnews/37579.htm for the story.

Sorry about the essay and going off at tangents with my arguments, hope you all managed to follow it and understand it.  

All my own personal opinion, and I reserve the right to be wrong.  

As an enthusiastic DIY'er I am currently rewiring my own home.  One of the reasons I have chosen to do so myself is because in the past I have properties rewired around me by professionals who were cutting corners, and I would prefer to do the whole thing myself for peace of mind.  I am not knocking professionals - I have known some good ones (one of them will be checking my wiring!) and I  have also seen some truly horrible DIY work over the years.  

I have done some wiring before, have a reasonable knowledge of the practicalities involved and all my work will be checked by a professional.  I cannot see what is wrong with that, neither  can I see why I should be stopped from doing so.

However, the idea of a series of courses all aimed at different competencies is a great one. If there were such a course I would join like a shot.

So what is the chance of the Government bringing one in? I won't hold my breath......

John Davies

OK - well apologies for not replying sooner - been madly busy with work.

And apologies for another long post, but there’s a lot to cover.  The thread topic is “Something to think about” – well I have been thinking, and I’d like other people to think as well.  BigT wants to know where I’m coming from, L.Spark wants to know why he should have to back up his assertions with facts, so let’s get started.

I'll begin by answering BigT's question, because it sets the scene.  I am not trade, I am a DIYer.  I do all sorts of DIY, with varying degrees of competence, and for that which I can't, or don't want to do, I will use a professional.  I'm a good painter and decorator, reasonable-ish carpenter as long as I know my limits, a crap gardener (mostly because of lack of interest), not much of a plumber (mostly because of lack of need to ever develop those skills), I'm a fabulous cook, I don't do building/plastering/tiling, and, I genuinely believe, I am a perfectly competent electrician.

So yes, there is a great deal of self-interest in my position, but I make no apologies for that because my self-interest is the same as that of millions of other people.

I'm going to start building my case by looking at why people do DIY.  As I see it there are 4 main reasons.

1) For enjoyment.  Man is a tool-using animal, and there is a great deal of satisfaction to be gained from working with one's hands to create something, and being able to stand back and say "I did that", particularly for people whose job isn't like that.  Gardening is the classic example of this - it would be a bit odd for someone to make continually rewiring their house, or changing the wallpaper, a hobby, but gardening is something that millions of people do for pleasure, and spend a lot of time doing it.  But it is a form of DIY - they could always get a gardener to do it for them, and have the same end result to admire, but they choose to DIY because they enjoy it.

2) To save money.  Pretty self evident.

3) To get a better job done.  I'm not claiming that all DIYers will always do a better job than any professional, that would be ludicrous, as anybody who'd ever seen my bricklaying would be quick to point out.  But there are times when a DIYer will achieve better results because of the amount of time they can lavish on a job.  It's often related to #2 - time is money, and there will be instances where someone for whom that is not true can do a better job than someone for whom it is.  Take painting for example.  The amount of work involved in, say, preparing a wooden window for repainting, particularly if it's got lots of small panes, and decorative mouldings is huge. Nobody could make an economic proposition based around charging for doing it if they were truly going to do it as thoroughly as possible.  

4) Convenience.  There are times when the best way to get a job done is the 8AM start, bish-bosh all day long approach of the pro, and there are times when that level of disruption is unwelcome.  Decorating is one example – DIYing at evenings and weekends will for sure take longer, but it will also be a lot less intrusive and disruptive to daily routine.

However, we do, of course, have to moderate the above for safety and community interest reasons.  You can’t let anybody who knows how to mix mortar throw up whatever construction they want – you have to ensure that it is structurally sound, that it fits into planning rules etc etc.  Even with gardening we’ve seen how regulation is needed to deal with the menace of Leylandii, and how H&S concerns have justifiable restrictions on what chemicals can be used and so on.

But in all instances it is the responsibility of Government to impose as light a touch as possible, and to only intervene when there is a compelling reason to do so.  CORGI regulations are often used as a parallel when arguing about Part P, but ironically the Gas Regs don’t prohibit DIY gas work, as long as it is “competently” done.  I’ve never done anything with gas appliances apart from plugging a cooker into a bayonet fitting, so I don’t know how reasonable it is for a DIYer to acquire the necessary knowledge and skills, but I do know the following:

1) The potential for a catastrophic disaster with gas is much higher.  Faulty electrical work might result in someone getting a shock, faulty gas work might result in a whole household dying in their sleep.  A dodgy electrical connection might result in a small fire, and yes, I do realise that small fires can become large ones.  A dodgy gas connection might result in an explosion, and there is no such thing as a small gas explosion.

I don’t know how many problems arise from non-CORGI gas work, nor what percentage of them are due to work that should have been done by a registered person as opposed to genuine DIY work that went wrong, but unless it can be shown that DIY work is a major problem I’d say that the rules were about right.

2) Gas is much less pervasive and much more static in people’s homes than electricity.  By that I mean that there are millions of houses where there are but one or two gas appliances (boiler & cooker), once installed they remain there for several years – longer, one hopes, if they’re well made.  They don’t get moved about, or frequently replaced as part of a makeover.  Gas pipes do not run throughout the house, and they don’t very often need rerouting.  People don’t want to add the ability to control their gas cooker from two places.  They don’t have gas lights that they’d like to replace with some stainless steel ones they bought in B&Q.  They don’t want to run gas out to the garden and the shed to power lights, fountains and tools.

In short, there is nothing like the same need for people to make changes to their gas installation as there is with their electrical one.  Restricting DIY electrical work is hugely more invasive than restricting DIY gas work

3) Gas appliances are expensive, and in proportion to the cost of the item, the cost of paying a CORGI registered person to install a condensing boiler is a great deal less, and therefore a great deal more reasonable to impose, than the comparative situation of having to pay a professional electrician to install a socket costing a couple of pounds.  In the first case the labour costs are less than the cost of the item, in the second they are 10 or 20 times more.


Given that the impact of restrictions on DIY electrical work will therefore be felt by a very large number of people, and will have significant financial impact on a very large number of people, it is vital that there should be a compelling reason to implement restrictions.

In all activities that we fallible people undertake, there are risks, and the rules to moderate these activities in order to reduce the risks must be balanced against the costs, both financial and in terms of individual liberty.  For example, on average around 10 people a day are killed on the roads in this country.  The government rightly seeks to minimise road casualties by making drivers pass a test, imposing limits on how fast people are allowed to drive, how much alcohol they can drink, where they can drive, where they can park, how safe a condition their vehicle must be in and so on.  They also encourage and force car manufacturers to make their products safer.  They spend millions on public awareness campaigns.  But could anyone argue that they could not achieve a dramatic reduction in casualties by imposing a blanket 20mph speed limit?  By an outright ban on driving cars when there is fog, or ice and snow?  By raising the minimum driving age to 30?  By banning the sale and use of motorcycles?  All of these measures would undoubtedly save lives, but none of them would be introduced.

Why?  Because their impact would be too severe.  However rational a case you can make for banning motorcycles, ultimately you can’t deny people that choice.  The limits on personal mobility, choice of lifestyle, choice of job – all items of fundamental importance to individual liberty would be immense if you restricted people to travelling at 20mph, or staying at home for days or weeks at a time in winter.  The impact on the economy would be catastrophic.

Ladders.  In 1999, about 28,000 people were killed or injured falling from ladders and steps in the home.  We could probably save quite a few lives, and a lot of economic costs, if we banned the use of ladders & steps.  Would anybody be up for that?  Would preventing people from changing their own lamps, painting their own houses, using their lofts etc be a price worth paying in order to save lives, or would it be an unwarranted intrusion?

When L.Spark said that people were at risk from poor workmanship, and I asked him to show me the evidence, he said

“Why should I need to? It's pretty obvious that electrically unskilled persons work can put people in danger.”

Can yes, but do?  I’m afraid the evidence does have to be produced, for in a free society restrictions on people’s freedoms cannot be imposed on the basis of “It’s pretty obvious” – you must be able to show that there is a severe problem.

L.Spark also said Quote:


Of course I’m taking it seriously, I don’t want to be stopped from doing something that I find satisfying, I don’t want to have to pay 10-20x the cost of materials for someone to fit them, I don’t want to have to organise my domestic schedule around the efficiency needs of a tradesman when I need something done.  And I suspect that neither do millions of others.

I’m not saying that no dangerous work is done – I’m saying that before you reduce my quality of life, and forcibly increase my financial outlay, and damage the business of companies that sell electrical products, you must, absolutely must, show that the amount of dangerous work is so great that it cannot be tolerated, and just like I’m not free to drive while I’m pissed, or at 100mph down the High Street, I can’t be free to do my own wiring.

Anyway - I've gone on long enough and I need to get to bed.

I'm aware that I haven't answered BigT's challenge to come up with alternative ideas, rather than just arguments against his and L.Spark's, but I'll leave that until next time..

BAS, whilst you make some very important and fundamental points that I have read trough and understood, I must point out that I have not supported part-p at any stage, I'm not registered although I will have the option to shortly except the budget just won't stretch

I think it's all a step too far, remember it's stopping me doing what I enjoy and part of my livelihood, which is just as important as your personal freedom & liberty

However, you and I both know the dangers of electricity, and, although Yes the risks are low, I believe you understate how important it is to get right, you know more than any DIY'r and this is what puzzles me

I know there is a general lack of information on a big scale and this does nothing to help the situation

Now the problem with proving dangerous work has been undertaken is difficult since it would be hard to prove who had done it, and since I'm not in agreement with part-p, I've made my point and I'm leaving it for however people want to interpret it, but electrical safety is defiantly an issue that I think needs resolving, and so far nothing has been done to do this

[quote author=ban-all-sheds  link=1106096531/15#24 date=1106614445]I’m not saying that no dangerous work is done [/quote]

I know I'm not  

Awesome & voluminous posts on here.

I have to agree with BAS. DIY electrical work isn't the root cause of electrical danger in houses. Bad electrical work often is, but more often it's poor use of the electrical system combined with a lack of understanding of the risks being run.

The risks of poor installations & use of inappropriate equipment are however very real and they're not just here and now, but future risks too. By this I mean compromises, unconventional work-arounds and bodges etc. may pose no real danger to those who are aware of their presence, but could be fatal to someone who is unaware of their existence. Also under-rated cables inappropriate accessories or circuit protection may be risks understood and allowed for by current owners and users of a system, but which could again be fatal for the un-initiated.

In light of the desire to limit risk and damage done by such situations, this government has unfortunately gone for a system which, while trying to avoid prohibition, gives real financial incentive to the ingnorant or wilfully careless to avoid compliance with the new regulation, or oversight by a third party. In doing so I believe they have made the situation worse rather than better.

This really is one area where information can save lives. I know from observation and experience that giving out information in a nanny-like way rarely works. 'Mustn't do that' 'don't do this' etc just become a background wash of noise to most people. Information needs to be understood as well as 'consumed' so whatever level of information is given out, needs to be done at the required level for the job to be done and not cluttered with unnecessary complexity.

What we need to arrive at is a solid system which allows people to work with as little burden as possible, but with as much support and information as can be given reasonably safely and cheaply. Something which enourages and facilitates the use of professionals where necessary in the design of DIY projects would be a good start. The current certification system effectievly prohibits this approach, by default encouraging a 'keep it below the radar' and 'hope & pray' approach by householders.

I will end this post here as it'll get biblical if I don't. I'm still gestating some ideas for an approach which would control and limit the risks, while allowing the competent to do what they wish.

Quote:


Builder's and electrical work, now that's scarey  

Hello Guys, a fitting subject indeed.
So perhaps my background. First person who taught me about house wiring was the electrician who rewired our house when I was ten. I had great fun playing with electricity and gave myself a fair share of shocks.  Maybe parents aren't allowed to allow that sort of thing any more, but I survived it and learnt some basic house wiring. Basic inadvisability of walking on ceilings, too.

So maybe you might see that I am not the sort of person who worries about risks, not that kind of risk, anyway. Risk is part of life. You can't have love without hate, or pleasure without pain. Our government is stupidly obsessed with dangers it created itself regarding  terrorists, and can not see that it is systematically hacking away at the freedoms which make life fun. So I am not keen on rules. Rules should be the last desperate recourse when there is absolutely no other choice. All the sensible rules were writen years ago. Parliament just has to be seen to be busy.

I have a split opinion on part P. In practice I think it will be ineffectual and annoying to everyone. People in the legitimate economy were pretty much following the rules anyway. Those in in the black economy will be totally unaffected. It is a good idea for the government to improve electrical safety, but this will do virtually nothing to help. I think that on the whole all new wiring is done to a better standard than what it is replacing. The serious problems are with wiring which no one has worked on. All this will just discourage and delay improvements which would otherwise take place.

There is a very important skilled element to electrics, but it also contains a lot of simple graft. I know, it amazes me how many people simply can not properly clamp a wire with a screw. But a lot of the important stuff is the sort of thing which can be done with patience and care taking the place of skill learnt from years of practice. It is very suitable to be done safely and satisfyingly by DIYers

The path taken by the government will polarise people into those who slavishly obey and never touch their electrics, and those who utterly ignore the rules and do what they please. Neither one of these extremes is good. It will encourage the worst uninformed bodges, but also encourage an 'out of sight, out of mind' ignorance by others about their crumbling wiring. I have seen quite enough people happily accepting the eccentricities of their wiring systems.

People need EDUCATING to understand when they are in danger. A far better course is to teach people how to do wiring, how it works. Promote it at school. Dangerous wiring should be policed by the public knowing enough to spot a bodge for themselves.

This would not be bad for professional electricians. Completely the opposite. People would know when they were being ripped off. People with the cash would still pay for work to be done properly, for the obvious reason that a professional is just plain better at it. People who can not afford a professional would either DIY or hire a 'cowboy', but at least with better understanding of what might go wrong.

As to banning the sale of new accessories. This is really crazy. If you cannot buy them new, what will you do? Obviously, not replace them when they wear out. Got a sparking socket? Well, it will just have to stay. Throw away those old ones after the pro's have done a rewire? not likely, might need them for the extra sockets I'm planning.  Got some old round-pins? Yep, they'll do. Or those nice two-pin continental ones, like so much equipment comes with a plug for anyway?  Consumer units? Who needs that RCD nonsense. Get a good old wylex plug-in out the skip. Or maybe rescue that slightly dodgy RCD the neighbours had replaced? Great.

Did someone say their PLI cost them £100? God, it cost me that much to insure a Gymkhana 10 years ago.  But then horse riding really is dangerous. People wear crash helmets and body armour. And they still smash themselfves up and get killed.

I have been doing small  wiring jobs all my life. I know quite a lot about it now, and would certainly say that a lot of things I have done could better have been done differently. But most importantly, nothing I ever did
was worse than what existed already. And the most serious faults in this house remain things I have not got around to fixing. Perhaps another 30 years and they may get done. I am aware of these shortcomings in the wiring, but it is not unsafe. Merely slightly less fool proof. If I had not done these things, almost certainly no one would have.  Part P would have made a number of them illegal. It would have made this house less safe.