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Earth fault (Read 6393 times)
JohnD
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Earth fault
Mar 1st, 2005, 11:35pm
 
Now that my rewire is about there, my thoughts have returned to my elusive earth fault on the downstairs (radial) lighting circuit.

There is a distinct, though slight,  current at present flowing to earth regardless of whether lights are switched off or on.  ??? It gives you a definite tingle if you touch it - don't ask how I know........and lights up  my neon screwdriver - and I don't want to start any more arguments about that one either....... Wink

This bothers me as I assume that whilst this problem may be caused by impedence it may also be caused by the earth wire cutting into the positive somewhere.  The other circuits don't do this, thankfully.

I have bought a multimeter but the most useful instruction which came with it with it is how to put the battery in  - the instructions aren't detailed whatsoever - along the lines of  'Touch the electrodes to the component you wish to test.'  Great.

What sort of current is acceptable?

Also, can anyone suggest a test procedure - is it a case of disconnecting the supply cable section by section until the problem goes away?

I have tried to interest a professional electrican in doing a periodic inspection, but, reasonably,  he doesn't want to come and test until the plastering is done and a new ceiling up in the dining room as he says we may produce further faults. I can see his point, but I know that I have THIS fault, and would rather sort it out before the floorboards go back down - it will never be quicker to sort out than now.....  

Thanks

JohnD
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The_Trician
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Re: Earth fault
Reply #1 - Mar 2nd, 2005, 12:01am
 
Where are you mate? County'll do - if you are in Derbyshire I might be able to have a look for you.

TT
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Re: Earth fault
Reply #2 - Mar 2nd, 2005, 12:46am
 
thats an idea TT, i think there probrably isnt a county without a spark member in it, somone can go ava look .....and then tell us if the wiring is bad, if it is then everyone must accept part p.

john the fate of the whole....well no one really
rests on your shoulders with your earth problem

ss

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Re: Earth fault
Reply #3 - Mar 2nd, 2005, 12:51am
 
Quote:
whilst this problem may be caused by impedence

Why would it be caused by impedance, impedance is a resistance

Quote:
it may also be caused by the earth wire cutting into the positive somewhere

Now the earth cutting into phase or phase cutting into earth sounds far more likely, there shouldnt be any earth leakage on the circuit, although there could be

Quote:
What sort of current is acceptable

Somwhere inbetween none and not much  Undecided

Btw we don't have positive on an AC system  Grin

Quote:
Also, can anyone suggest a test procedure

Yes, Insulation resistance test between phase and earth
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« Last Edit: Mar 2nd, 2005, 12:56am by LSpark »  
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JohnD
Re: Earth fault
Reply #4 - Mar 2nd, 2005, 1:49am
 
Sorry - meant induction, not impedence.

Insulation resistance test - is this a megger test?  How do I do one?

Thanks

JohnD
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« Last Edit: Mar 2nd, 2005, 1:52am by tjohndavies »  
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Re: Earth fault
Reply #5 - Mar 2nd, 2005, 1:55am
 
[quote author=JohnD  link=1109720157/0#4 date=1109728199]Sorry - meant induction, not impedence [/quote]
Should not get any real induction afaik

Quote:
Insulation resistance test - is this a megger test?  How do I do one?

aka megger yes, you would need an IR tester, this where used correctly would fire 500V down the phase and see what the resistance is bettween conductors, a low/no reading will show up defect's like short-circuit's etc
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JohnD
Re: Earth fault
Reply #6 - Mar 2nd, 2005, 2:02am
 
Right, that seems beyond me then!  

Will just try to find out manually which section of the supply causes the fault.

Thanks L.Spark

JohnD

Don't you ever sleep?!!
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« Last Edit: Mar 2nd, 2005, 2:06am by tjohndavies »  
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Re: Earth fault
Reply #7 - Mar 2nd, 2005, 8:20am
 
[quote author=L.Spark  link=1109720157/0#3 date=1109724708]Why would it be caused by impedance, impedance is a resistance [/quote]

Beg to differ. Though it's 30 years since I did my college work on the subject....

As I remember it impedance comprises resistance, capacitance and reactance.

A resistor will pass both AC and DC current.
A capacitor will pass only AC current.
A reactive load will only pass DC current.

Therefore to describe impedance as a resistance is not in my view accurate because you cannot ignore reactance and capacitance. Current can be induced in a circuit which is in close proximity to another AC source, via capacitance. That's how a transformer works - two separate circuits in very close proximity to each other. And you can take noise out of a line by introducing a reactive load - that's what the little dongle around the cable on your PC monitor is.

Before anyone leaps in and mentions round spherical objects, I am generalising for the purposes of this topic.

Of course, it is entirely possible under a labour government that the terms resistance, capacitance and reactivity have been redefined since I did my college stuff.

HM
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Re: Earth fault
Reply #8 - Mar 2nd, 2005, 10:20am
 
in theory the earth fault loop has a complex impedance when considered at mains frequency

in practice this is always approximated by a resistance. whilst not a perfect way of doing things this seems accurate enough for the perpose.
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Re: Earth fault
Reply #9 - Mar 2nd, 2005, 1:19pm
 
Quote:
Don't you ever sleep?!!

I do, but not for long, I need less sleep than most people, subsequently I get more done  Grin
[quote author=HM  link=1109720157/0#7 date=1109751643]Therefore to describe impedance as a resistance is not in my view accurate because you cannot ignore reactance and capacitance
[/quote]
Well In my view it's quite correct  8)

Impedance is a combined resistance, including capacitance and inductance, it's the opposition to AC current flow

Nice to know you're not completely out of it  Wink Grin

Quote:
that's what the little dongle around the cable on your PC monitor is

What dongle, there isnt one, obviously doesnt need it in this case lol

Quote:
Of course, it is entirely possible under a labour government that the terms resistance, capacitance and reactivity have been redefined since I did my college stuff

Let's leave the government out on this one, people aren’t interested in politics when they come in here lol
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« Last Edit: Mar 4th, 2005, 8:20pm by LSpark »  
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Re: Earth fault
Reply #10 - Mar 3rd, 2005, 10:27pm
 
[quote author=L.Spark  link=1109720157/0#9 date=1109769562]Nice to know you're not completely out of it  Wink Grin [/quote]

Well I do admit that when I was doing my OND/HNC I didn't take a whole lot of notice of the Tesla experiments and that heavy electrical stuff, it wasn't my bag because I was more into the electronics low voltage/high frequency stuff.

But I took enough in to remember over the years I guess. We had a fantastic teacher at college, an older guy who must've been pushing up the daisies for some time now.

Hmm, I remember Southampton Tech showing us this wonderful piece of equipment - an analogue computer. That was in the days long before before PC's and digital computers were invented - to make the analogue computer do something you twiddled a knob!

HM
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Beanzy
Re: Earth fault
Reply #11 - Mar 5th, 2005, 4:29pm
 
[quote author=HM  link=1109720157/0#10 date=1109888872]
- to make the analogue computer do something you twiddled a knob! [/quote]

The missus must reckon I'm an old analogue computer so. Shocked

Interested to know how John D is getting on with the fault-finding.
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JohnD
Re: Earth fault
Reply #12 - Mar 5th, 2005, 8:15pm
 
Thanks for asking!

Couldn't find fault with my neon screwdriver (no, I don't want to start that debate again Wink,  so simply replaced all three lengths of feed cable to be on the safe side.

All floorboards were still up and a ceiling down, so it didn't take long.

All now seems o.k. - there was a very, very slight glow, possibly due to induction - a length of wire straight off the reel did the same - but nowhere near the same 'glow' as before.

I am happy now to wait until the installation can be professionally inspected.

Thanks to all who responded

JohnD
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Re: Earth fault
Reply #13 - Mar 6th, 2005, 7:06pm
 
[quote author=HM  link=1109720157/0#7 date=1109751643]

Beg to differ. Though it's 30 years since I did my college work on the subject....

As I remember it impedance comprises resistance, capacitance and reactance. [/quote]
I beg to differ too.

Impedance comprises resistance and reactance.

Reactance can be due to capacitance or inductance - a reactive circuit is one which contains capacitors, inductors or both.
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