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Using a plug in RCD on a RCD protected ring main? (Read 10883 times)
Orbital
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Using a plug in RCD on a RCD protected ring main?
Mar 18th, 2005, 4:16pm
 
Hi all

The 30amp ring main in our house is protected by a 30MA RCD located next to the CU (a Wylex unit fitted with MCB's).

Does this mean I don't have to use the 'plug into socket' RCD (the one I own is also 30MA) device when mowing the lawn etc? Is it safer (or not) having this additional RCD protection?

Thanks for taking the time out to read my post. I look forward to any helpful replies.

Ten
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LSpark
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Re: Using a plug in RCD on a RCD protected ring ma
Reply #1 - Mar 18th, 2005, 4:20pm
 
Hi Ten

What you have sound's like it may be a split-load board, where exactly in the board is the R.C.D Unit located?, the RCD unit will usualy be 2 module size, or the same width as two MCB's, if it's half way down the board, you have a split-load board, where half of the board is protected by the RCD, and the other half is unprotected

If all the ring circuit's/sockets are covered by this RCD, then there is no need to use a plug in RCD, except for you're own satisfaction..

The RCD in the consumer unit should be tested quaterly by testing the button marked 'T' or 'Test', this should cut off the supply to the circuit, it it fails to do this the RCD unit may be faulty and needs to be replaced
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« Last Edit: Mar 18th, 2005, 10:18pm by LSpark »  
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Beanzy
Re: Using a plug in RCD on a RCD protected ring ma
Reply #2 - Mar 18th, 2005, 9:08pm
 
Sounds like a retro-fit RCD on an older fuse board rather than a consumer-unit. You'll need to be certain this is actually protecting the circuit you intend to use for outdoor equipment. Plug some equipment in and push the test button to trip the RCD. if the equipment stops, then re-set the RCD and it should start up again.

Once you know this is actually the RCD protected circuit, then you won't need another RCD, unless the one you've tripped is faulty.

It may be worth getting a periodic inspection report on your system, so you can be sure it's safe to use.
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Orbital
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Re: Using a plug in RCD on a RCD protected ring ma
Reply #3 - Mar 18th, 2005, 9:34pm
 
Thanks L.Spark & Beanzy for your responses. (I take it you meant me L.Spark - you called me Matt, my nick is Ten!)

Beanzy is correct - it isn't a consumer unit (my mistake, I researched the difference), it is a fuse box which I replaced the cartridge fuses with MCB's. The RCD could be retro fit but it looks like it was installed at the same time as the fusebox, the house was built (1987 ish). The RCD has a green sticker saying it protects the circuit shown on the fuse box. Below the MCB protecting the ring main is another green sticker saying "This circuit is protected by the RCD".
Any idea what year the regs first stated that any socket which could supply a feed to outside the home needs to be protected by an RCD? I'm not sure, perhaps I will take a look at a few of the other houses and see if they have the same.

Thanks for the advice - I will test to make sure the RCD is working correctly. For a periodic inspection, is it simply a case of phoning up a sparks and asking for just that? Any idea how much something like that would be for a small 2 bed house near Surrey/Hants borders?

Ten

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LSpark
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Re: Using a plug in RCD on a RCD protected ring ma
Reply #4 - Mar 18th, 2005, 10:14pm
 
[quote author=Orbital  link=1111162569/0#3 date=1111181664](I take it you meant me L.Spark - you called me Matt, my nick is Ten!) [/quote]
I did, sorry, my mistake 8)

Quote:
Any idea what year the regs first stated that any socket which could supply a feed to outside the home needs to be protected by an RCD?

Can't be certain, but even though it states this now, this is not always followed trough, essentialy if you want that level of safety as reccomended, then you will need to ascertain if you're protected as beanzy states

Quote:
Thanks for the advice - I will test to make sure the RCD is working correctly

Testing the button on the front of the RCD device does not garuntee that the RCD will protect you properly, it only checks the mechnical mechnism inside is functionining, to check the RCD for disconnection/trip times, it would need to be tested by someone with the proper test equipment, that is why beanzy is reccomending you have a periodic inspection carried out, as this will flag up anything not functioning properly

Quote:
For a periodic inspection, is it simply a case of phoning up a sparks and asking for just that?

Yep, periodic test/periodic inspection report

Quote:
Any idea how much something like that would be for a small 2 bed house near Surrey/Hants borders?

Rough cost should be between £150 - £280 most, get at least two quote's  Smiley

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« Last Edit: Mar 18th, 2005, 10:16pm by LSpark »  
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Re: Using a plug in RCD on a RCD protected ring ma
Reply #5 - Mar 19th, 2005, 11:06pm
 
Thanks again for the response L.Spark.

Interestingly, whilst researching further I came across this page on the web -

http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/electrical/consumer.htm

Which mentions that the RCD test switch is not just a mechanical trip out test, but creates an earth leak using a resistor. I guess if the RCD doesn't trip when the button is pressed then it really isn't protecting within specification and would not be a mechanical failure of the tripping mechanism.

Thought that might be of use, as long as it is correct of course.

Regards.

Ten.



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LSpark
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Re: Using a plug in RCD on a RCD protected ring ma
Reply #6 - Mar 20th, 2005, 12:20am
 
Quote:
Which mentions that the RCD test switch is not just a mechanical trip out test

It is just that

Quote:
but creates an earth leak using a resistor

Yes, that’s how it's testing the mechanism

Quote:
I guess if the RCD doesn't trip when the button is pressed then it really isn't protecting within specification and would not be a mechanical failure of the tripping mechanism

Let's be very clear about this, if the RCD does not disconnect when pressing the test button, it is faulty, however, this does not tell you that the RCD is protecting you properly, and disconnecting at correct times

There are two tests to be done to RCD's, one to check it can disconnect the circuit at appropriate times (Using special test equipment), and another that should be done regularly to check the mechanics e.g. button marked T or Test

Please do not make the assumption that pushing the button marked T or Test will ensure you're being protected

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« Last Edit: Mar 20th, 2005, 12:23am by LSpark »  
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ban-all-sheds
Re: Using a plug in RCD on a RCD protected ring ma
Reply #7 - Mar 21st, 2005, 1:38am
 
OOI - question for all sparkies - what's the incidence of RCDs which trip when their test button is pressed but fail a proper test?
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Beanzy
Re: Using a plug in RCD on a RCD protected ring ma
Reply #8 - Mar 21st, 2005, 1:46am
 
I've had two, both during periodic testing, one 3phase which had been wired incorrectly, and one duff 80A 30ma. That's the lot so far.
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ban-all-sheds
Re: Using a plug in RCD on a RCD protected ring ma
Reply #9 - Mar 21st, 2005, 2:05am
 
Out of how many seen/tested?
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LSpark
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Re: Using a plug in RCD on a RCD protected ring ma
Reply #10 - Mar 21st, 2005, 2:18am
 
lol, hope you're not trying to sugest it doesnt happen  Wink
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Beanzy
Re: Using a plug in RCD on a RCD protected ring ma
Reply #11 - Mar 21st, 2005, 2:56am
 
That's since I started the company about a year and a half ago, before that only did commercial testing with office and plant room stuff, didn't come across many RCDs, couple a year maybe. I have binned one without testing, but the green slime oozing out of it and the fact it was on a pole in a barn which had lost that part of it's roof about 4 years before made testing kind of superfluous Roll Eyes
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ban-all-sheds
Re: Using a plug in RCD on a RCD protected ring ma
Reply #12 - Mar 21st, 2005, 6:40pm
 
[quote author=L.Spark  link=1111162569/0#10 date=1111371517]lol, hope you're not trying to sugest it doesnt happen  Wink [/quote]
Absolutely not - just genuinely interested to know how common it is...
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« Last Edit: Mar 21st, 2005, 6:40pm by ban-all-sheds »  
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Beanzy
Re: Using a plug in RCD on a RCD protected ring ma
Reply #13 - Mar 21st, 2005, 8:13pm
 
I'd be interested to see how my couple compare with everyone else. Just on a hunch basis I'd have said finding two in that time would be on the high side. I mean they should last for a decent span of use and they're normally tested on installation (though one of those I had can't have been). I can't imagine folks would be finding many failing to trip unless they fail mechanically.

Anyone else?
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supersparky
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Re: Using a plug in RCD on a RCD protected ring ma
Reply #14 - Mar 23rd, 2005, 12:24am
 
[quote author=ban-all-sheds  link=1111162569/0#9 date=1111370711]Out of how many seen/tested? [/quote]

out of a few 100 last year that i can remember,
quite a few failed proper tests, but the most interesting one was the one that i pressed the button and exploded Embarrassed

that was a bit embarising and took some explaining that it was'nt my fault

ss
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Re: Using a plug in RCD on a RCD protected ring ma
Reply #15 - Mar 24th, 2005, 10:49pm
 
I've found exactly one RCBO that didn't work to spec in the last eighteen months. They seem to be extremely reliable bits of kit. Every plain RCD I've tested has worked fine.

In the case of this particular RCBO I quoted the miserly sum of £60 to supply and fit (the part was almost £50 onits own). The customer said he'd think about it... that was over a month ago; need I say more?
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Re: Using a plug in RCD on a RCD protected ring ma
Reply #16 - Mar 26th, 2005, 3:50pm
 
Just tested a caravan park hook up points 8 out of 15 rcd failed the button test but pasted the meter test. damp had some how just stopped the button test from working ,by the way they were tenby rcd's .
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