Hello Jim

Minor work's such as additional sockets or light's are considered minor work's and therefore not notifiable, so unless you're changing fuse board's it's not going to be worth you’re while.

If you were looking to join a scheme you will have to do a cost analysis, the schemes all require to see you're work except NAPIT I believe, who will accept you with all the right bit's of paper!

When you say 16th edition trained electrician, I assume that the 16th edition certificate is not you're only training?

The schemes require formal qualification's including 2391 (testing and inspection certificate)

If you don't do allot of domestic work I would advise against it registering as part-p only applies to domestic work

For link's to all the self-certification schemes or for what is and isnt notifiable work see DIY Electrical work & Part P

[quote author=jim123  link=1108845227/0#2 date=1108846649]Hey thanks for the reply.
No the 16th isn’t my only training, I’m time served in electrical maintenance and installation... [/quote]
No probs there then

Quote:

They do want you to have it, even tho it only last's 3 years they wrekon, then they like you to re-take it  , but doubt that really happens  8)

Quote:

Easier to look at as, as long as the circuit does not extend to a new circuit, as in you're working on an exsisting circuit, and that circuit is not in a special location e.g. bathroom or kitchen, AND the circuit changes will not put undue strain on the electrical installation, then it's OK  8)

Lot's to think about, again I think have listed all the conditions of minor work's in the part-p info page, but always other thing's to think about, the link's to the Part-p document's are also in there, worth a read for people thinking of registering

[quote author=dingbat  link=1108845227/0#4 date=1108901739]He told me that, even now, there is no clear agreement between the schemes, IEE and the odpm as to what, exactly, constitutes suitable qualifications. [/quote]That's because the organisations running the schemes, particularly NICEIC and the ECA, don't really care about your qualifications - they just want your money, the amount of which is payable on the basis of a charging structure designed to give large companies a distinct advantage over small and OMB operations.

Few weeks ago I had a discution about the part P (who haven't?), one of the replys was that part P is only recommendations and has nothing to do with BS7671, which I did not completely agreed with.  I checked this issue of part P in the college, the explanation was that part P is part of the bulding regulations and therefor it is a legal document, I asked why it is clearly written that these are recommendations, the reply was that they left opening for R&D and new systems, if part P would not have this recommendation issue in it there would not be possible to disgin new systems and ideas...
So I will be interested to here what you experts think, as I am stil confused as before! :P
Albert

Albert - you're still confused.

"Part P" 1) The Building Regulations, which are statutory, now have a new part.  It is Part P, and the official definition of it is here: http://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2004/20043210.htm .  If you read that, you will see that it makes no requirement to implement BS7671.

"Part P" 2) The Approved Document, one of a series explaining, and expanding on the legislation, and like all the other Approved Documents, listing possible way(s) in which the legal requirements can be met, is just that - only an explanation etc, and as they all say:

Approved Documents are intended to provide
guidance for some of the more common
building situations. However, there may well be
alternative ways of achieving compliance with
the requirements. Thus there is no obligation
to adopt any particular solution contained in
an Approved Document if you prefer to meet
the relevant requirement in some other way.

So adherence to BS7671 is a way to meet requirement P1 of the Building Regulations, but it is not the only way.  It is sufficient, but not necessary.

[quote author=Jim Franklin  link=1108845227/0#10 date=1111474374]The simple fact is though in Jim123's case, it will not be cost effective to register on any of the Part P robbery schemes as he would be looking at a minimum opf £600 in order to register.

For the works he does annually that would fall under Part P, it is simply not viable. [/quote]

This is exactly the situation I find myself in.  As a builder of extensions I do electrical work only as part of my main trade.  However the convenience of doing the electrical work myself is considerable, not having to wait for anyone to turn up/last minute changes/unforseen bits and bobs etc.

But the cost of compliance with a 'scheme' is prohibitive.

But also charging my customers for BCO inspections is prohibitive too.

wtf is a guy to do?  I'm just out to earn a living by doing a quality job but within a fixed budget.

These ODPM tossers have competely f*cked that up for me.

I'm in favour of everyone being 'qualified' before touching leccy work but I'm NOT in favour of the COST of PartP.  For me it's a killer, tempting me to go illegal.

Good Laws don't encourage citizens to go 'illegal'  

Jerry do you not have a notification in for the job anyway with the local BCB if it's an extension? If so the electrical work just gets notified on the plans by including the note about all works being to BS7671 inorder to comply with PartP. You don't need another notification, or to pay for a specific electrical inspection by the BCO. You will need to have an Electrical Installation Certificate for the work to show and copy to the BCO. You can issue this yourself if you are 'competent' & have the calibrated test kit, most BCBs seem to be accepting the G&G 2391 cert as proof of competence to issue an EIC.

Don't know if that helps or not.

No you won't be 'Self-Certifying' you'll be using the buildings Notification route. You'll be issuing Electrical Installation Certificates as part of that process. These have to be issued by the person doing the design, installation, inspection& testing of the work. Self-certification schemes are to avoid the notification process until completion of the work, where you just notify it as compliant and avoid the Building Regulations process. You definitely don't have to be a member of any scheme to issue an EIC, you just have to be competent and equipped to do so. The EIC will be part of the paperwork the BCO will require to issue the completion notice to you.

If you check out this PDF from the District Surveyors Authority you'll see the guidlines the LABCBs are working to:- http://www.lxsouth.co.uk/dsa-partp.pdf

If you already are in the notification process for all your work, then joining a scheme would be a waste. I'd say long-term, as you've been doing this electrical work for years,  gaining competence & equipment to sign off BS7671 EICs (do the 2381 & 2391) would be a better use of your time and money. Don't 'crash course it if you want to really learn from the 2381, I'd find a local college where you can go steady and get time to absorb the details. If you're unsure of any aspect of what you do, you'll soon spot the gaps when you get fully familiar with BS7671 while boning up for the C&G exams. (Ask HM about the eye opener doing the C&G2381 can be) Then fill these gaps with practice and having someone 'mentor' your progress.

Yup, though they may be happier with the 2391 too (do a 4/5 dayer for that). Copy the cert and submit it with the original plans so they can come back to check any doubts etc they may have. If you work in one or two BCB areas it's worth getting in touch to get yourself on their list of people from whom they'll accept EICs. Then you won't have to worry about loads of cert copies.

To emphasise the 'Self Certification' Schemes are just a way of avoiding Building Regulations Notification processes, but if you're in that process already then there's little point in being a scheme member.


PS: I still think Part P is duff even though I'm in the electromafia now and it has little impact for me.

[quote author=JerryD  link=1108845227/15#18 date=1111531110]I wonder how many other builders have signed up for a 'scheme' when they don't need to  ??? [/quote]

Well the real question would be, 'how many scheme operators would be honest enough to put them straight?' I suspect the attitude of most would be to keep mum and take the money, justifying it as being a way of improving safety. Who looks out for the tradesmans interests in all of this? How many independent Electricians & Builders were consulted about Part P? Nope thought so, just those groups who have a vested interest in strong arming money out of anyone they can or those who don't actually have to bear the additional costs.

Like I say I was stumping up the dosh for the Logo & support anyway so no problem there, but I'd be really fecked off if I'd been coerced into it.

[quote author=JerryD  link=1108845227/0#11 date=1111520259]

This is exactly the situation I find myself in.  As a builder of extensions I do electrical work only as part of my main trade.  However the convenience of doing the electrical work myself is considerable, not having to wait for anyone to turn up/last minute changes/unforseen bits and bobs etc.

But the cost of compliance with a 'scheme' is prohibitive.

But also charging my customers for BCO inspections is prohibitive too.

wtf is a guy to do?  I'm just out to earn a living by doing a quality job but within a fixed budget.

These ODPM tossers have competely f*cked that up for me.

I'm in favour of everyone being 'qualified' before touching leccy work but I'm NOT in favour of the COST of PartP.  For me it's a killer, tempting me to go illegal.

Good Laws don't encourage citizens to go 'illegal'  
[/quote]
I know exactly how you feel, the cost to get an electrician in is crippling me.

I get charged in the region of £500 every Bathroom that I fit. The last Bathroom that was done came to £650. I've had enough of paying out this sort of money and I feel that it's simply not worth me quoting for the electrics at all (just the supp bonding).

If I itemise the electrical works out in my quote people will think I'm taking the p1ss so I have to absorb some of the cost into other areas of work.

No worries, looks ok to me  8)

btw, £650 is a rip off for electrical in bathroom, if only I was local  

i would'nt price it like that  personly, id charge for the day (between 180 and 250)
and then bill seperatly for parts

ss

[quote author=supersparky  link=1108845227/15#25 date=1111539985]i would'nt price it like that  personly, id charge for the day (between 180 and 250)
and then bill seperatly for parts

ss [/quote]

If I could get a sparks for £180 I could put away £400 onto a my pension!! I could retire in 10 years

Nah seriousley I've had words with my sparks and hes said the lowest he can go for a days work is £220 plus vat but I have to be there to help him.

[quote author=supersparky  link=1108845227/15#28 date=1111540309]what the hell lol, and your in devon right!

and im sitting here with my 250 day rate for my london work  ???

im commin to devon

ss [/quote]

Who's in Devon?? Not me I'm Surrey/Hants

devon, lol, saying nothing  

bstyle, when you say whirlpool etc, is this just what he has to give supplies to

e.g.

supply to 2x showers > whirlpool

supply and fit LV downlighters, extractor etc, seems a bit unclear

[quote author=bstyle  link=1108845227/15#29 date=1111540487]

Who's in Devon?? Not me I'm Surrey/Hants
[/quote]
my mistake im still moving to surry then

lol

ss

yeh not sure either

ss

[quote author=L.Spark  link=1108845227/30#34 date=1111542146]£650 is materials also then or am I getting this wrong  ??? [/quote]


Sorry, yes that includes materials but theres not that much

£20 per light =    £60 for three
Extractor       =    £30
RCD              =    £30
General Mats=   £100 (me being generous)
All excluding vat

Total £260 including vat

Thats £390 labour including vat and me being generous on the materials

[quote author=L.Spark  link=1108845227/30#38 date=1111542824]Mats?! lol

[/quote]

Materials!

Sorry it must be my Devonshire accent  

have you never heard of a bath mat  

PartP requirement "all bathrooms should have rubber mats"

lol

lol, you silly billyyyys!  

[quote author=JerryD  link=1108845227/15#16 date=1111528601]    I already have CG 2381    and was considering doing the 2391 but places on courses are a problem around here.

[/quote]

Greetings  to everyone and especially to the ones like me hoping to go for  the 2391 PRACTICAL exam ...one day

Anyway, a  big chocolate egg to anyone answering these two questions:

1. Re: a periodic inspection on an existing installation .

Whilst doing an isulation resistence test , can one connect DIRECT onto the phase busbar, neutral terminal and earth terminal direct BUT obviously after checking system has been isolated, INSTEAD of doing each circuit individually ?
(all sensitive equipment removed or switches left open where it is not
practical to do so)

2. again to do with a periodic inspection on an existing installation .

If you have no diagrams or previous inspection records and you want to check the continuity of protective conductors and bonding, according to Guidance
Notes 3 , if you have steel trunking and conduit SWA and MICC cable, this will create parallel paths.
Should it be done prior to fixing accessories so as this is a periodic with no records or even if it had records, what is the best way of checking the
continuity of CPC and bonding?

Cheers.
And a chocolate Easter bunny to anyone remembering any funny mistakes from the practical exam. What BIG TIME blunders did you see candidates make ?

PS. don't be shy, chocolate is GOOD for you

[quote author=L.Spark  link=1108845227/45#46 date=1111968125]

Quoted:  << If you have no diagrams or previous inspection records and you want to check the continuity of protective conductors and bonding, according to Guidance   Notes 3 , if you have steel trunking and conduit SWA and MICC cable, this will create parallel paths.  
Should it be done prior to fixing accessories so as this is a periodic with no records or even if it had records, what is the best way of checking the  
continuity of CPC and bonding?   >>
================================
===============================
Now to me that doesn't really make sense, regardless of fixing accessories, you would need to remove any 'parallel paths' as best as possible, and if you cannot then you should expect readings to be off slightly, dependent upon installation conditions..?
[/quote]

Thank you  for your reply L.Spark.
Part of that had been in turn quoted from  GN3  Anyway could you  not just test the continuity of the trunking, SWA, cable etc, etc ?

Here's a challenging one: on a three phase installation with a double pole isolator when you throw main isolator arm and remove neutral link , then when neutral link removed (Re: INSULATION TEST) ,why does a shorting lead need to be connected between phase and earth?

Unfortunately, I cannot afford to go to college , yet.
Many thanks

[quote author=L.Spark  link=1108845227/45#48 date=1112021700]
[/quote]

Hello L.Spark.
I know....
Anyhow, just so I understand , I  get it in future    can  anyone explain this:

How can you check  CPC continuity which is incorporated  inside steel trunking and conduit , since  this  will create a parallel path  -  
- On a three phase installation with a double pole isolator when you throw main isolator arm and remove neutral link , then when neutral link removed (Re: INSULATION TEST) ,why does a shorting lead need to be connected between phase and earth?

Thank you anyway.
I'm struggling with books right now

[quote author=L.Spark  link=1108845227/45#50 date=1112024892]
in answer to you're question, we use a shorting lead to make a loop, a loop that consists of r1 and r2, where
r1 is you're phase conductor and
r2 is you're circuit protective conductor (CPC)

so in essence we short phase to earth so we include both phase and earth when testing, we are then including both cable's or paths in our test..

this does however have nothing to do with insulation tests, you would not create any shorts normaly whilst undertaking insulation tests, only in certain circumstances where equipment is liable to be damaged by test voltages
[/quote]

Thank you for your reply  L.Spark

I am  going  nuts   because when i was on a 2391 course , for some reason, we used a shorting lead on a 3 PHASE system when doing insulation + polarity ,which dare I say/in my opinion     is not right, is it?

Cheers

[quote author=Lectrician  link=1108845227/45#52 date=1112029019]I suspect on 3 phase, you shorted the 3 phases together with a link and measured from this link to N and E.  You then removed the link to measure between the phases. [/quote]

Many thanks  Lectrician !

On the course , we shorted between phase and earth on the 3  phase board.

When  I asked why we did this on an insulation test  , I was told it was due to taking the neutral link out


I don't know ....

[quote author=L.Spark  link=1108845227/45#54 date=1112034480]  these sort's of questions are a bit strange for one whos undertaking diy work, [/quote]

Thank you L.Spark  .
Any opinions   ???  on this  last one, please ? -How do you check CPC continuity which is incorporated inside steel trunking and conduit , since this will create a PARALLEL path ? - RE: three phase installation which also has SWA and MICC cables

Many thanks.
I am NOT  doing any work not even domestic nevermind  commercial or industrial .   I am just  (curiously)  looking at exam and practical issues in order to decide if I should go for an exam in 12 months' time after I go to college, acquire some (more   ) knowledge

If your not at college or working, can I ask where your getting these questions from then. When we take exams we are not allowed to take papers home, so where did you get yours friend.

Regards T